($27) JJ gets in a weird spot

[Pudge714]

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK MINBET AND CALL OF MINBET ON A SUPER DRAWY BOARD IS A HAND BETTER THAN JJ HERE. READING EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD THAT ISN'T EAGLES OR FLUORESCENT HIPPO MAKES MY EYES BLEED.

[BHokie1]

Pudge and others are correct that minbet is not scary on that board, also if he has a weak Q he might fold it.
In game I don't always see it that way - which is why I push PF.

[speedgun]

I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

At the flop, the min bet and call from the blinds do not tell you much except the SB is probably a donkey. I guess there is a good chance that you are against a mid pair (including lower pocket pairs) and a draw. Sure you might be behind now, but you still have some FE even against weak queens (less so if the one with a queen is stupid.)

Overall, folding would never cross my mind at this stage. Now the pot offers you more than 10:1 odds to see how things would develop at the turn, so calling is not bad here. I would push 40%, call 40% and raise to something like $500 20% of the time (depending on the reads on the players). 0% to fold.

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly is enough it punish light callers. Calling any amount out of the blinds at this stage in a sit n go is going to be -EV for the most part. Doesn't really matter if its to 200,250, or 300. You simply are not deep enough to be calling out of the blinds in spots like these.

[speedgun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree shove is the best move preflop. I would like it much better if your stack was lower than 1,000 or there was one or more limpers/raisers before you. But I don't like the size of your raise either, it is not big enough to discourage and punish light callers with picture cards or weaker aces, especially from blinds. Make it at least $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly is enough it punish light callers. Calling any amount out of the blinds at this stage in a sit n go is going to be -EV for the most part. Doesn't really matter if its to 200,250, or 300. You simply are not deep enough to be calling out of the blinds in spots like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, don't we also need to adjust our play to the typical opponents at lower buy-in SNGs? Regardless of whatever an ideal and smart villain should think, I bet ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) most of them would feel very different about calling 200 and 300 bets especially 100 of their chips are already invested in to the pot. And I do think the bet size matters, say if you are in the BB somebody open bet and there are one or two callers before you, you have something like J10s I would be a lot more happy to call if it is the min size raise as it would give me an almost irresistable pot odds.

[DevinLake]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, don't we also need to adjust our play to the typical opponents at lower buy-in SNGs? Regardless of whatever an ideal and smart villain should think, I bet ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) most of them would feel very different about calling 200 and 300 bets especially 100 of their chips are already invested in to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think someone that is going to call a raise of 250 or 275 is going to call a raise of 300. We don't need to raise more when it doesn't drastically change our opponents behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]
And I do think the bet size matters, say if you are in the BB somebody open bet and there are one or two callers before you, you have something like J10s I would be a lot more happy to call if it is the min size raise as it would give me an almost irresistable pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for one, I wasn't advocating min raising. But, I do think 275 is a lot different than 200. Again, I don't think it's going to drastically change an opponents calling range. So, once that first guys calls, the BB will be getting really good pot odds even if you raise to 300.

This doesn't even address the issue that pot odds don't really matter at this stage in the sng. We have to think about how our decision will most likely affect our tournament equity.

[eurythmech]

In general, I think 250>>300 at this stage of the tournament, and with our stack.

The 50 difference might look like nothing, but it can often be the diffence between being able to CB and fold to CRAI, and not being able to comfortably fold (forcing us to either make a call or fold that is bad, or forcing us to overbet all-in as our CB)

[speedgun]

In no way I am an ICM expert, but at this blind level with an average M of 11.2 and 8 of 9 players still alive with meaningful stack, are we really in the stage where pot odds doesn't really matter that much any more? I sometimes feel that people get into the pushbot mode too hastily.

[bussto]

preflop raise was weak prob allowed for call of like q 10 here in one of the blinds.
prob push still if they have been playn tight like you said. small blind mite lay down weak kicker specially with action behind him still with bb most likely on some draw who mite just throw his chips in there anyways being his weak stack...

[eurythmech]

The following needs to be clarified:

If sb is holding a queen he is either

a) a tard deluxe for making the preflop call, and for minbetting
b) a genius with AQ

In any case, he is NEVER folding this flop.
That is, IF he's holding a queen.