87s turn move vs 2+2er and tilting LAG

efficacy · #1 11-14-2007, 05:44 AM

SB is 2+2er and we know each other well. 24/17/1.9

CO is 47/28/1.2 over a smallish sample. He has shown definite tilting tendencies. In the previous hand he lost a huge set over set pot vs the 2+2 guy.

PokerStars $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 4 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
CO calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.00 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, CO raises, Hero calls, SB 3-bets, CO caps!, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, CO bets, Hero raises

MitchL · #2 11-14-2007, 05:55 AM

I really dont like this. What do you put him on? Air?

Oink · #3 11-14-2007, 06:00 AM

Well.

If you think SB folds an overpair it could be ok I guess.

Also if you just call its likely that SB raises behind you anyway. With your OESD you cant fold on this turn so I think you might as well give it a go and see if SB can fold his KK or whatever.

MitchL · #4 11-14-2007, 06:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well.

If you think SB folds an overpair it could be ok I guess.

Also if you just call its likely that SB raises behind you anyway. With your OESD you cant fold on this turn so I think you might as well give it a go and see if SB can fold his KK or whatever.

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I cant imagine KK raising the turn after the flop action and this card peeling off. If anyone is gonna be raising it will be CO and we will be paying 3bbs hopefully drawing to better than a chop.

Oink · #5 11-14-2007, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well.

If you think SB folds an overpair it could be ok I guess.

Also if you just call its likely that SB raises behind you anyway. With your OESD you cant fold on this turn so I think you might as well give it a go and see if SB can fold his KK or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant imagine KK raising the turn after the flop action and this card peeling off. If anyone is gonna be raising it will be CO and we will be paying 3bbs hopefully drawing to better than a chop.

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Given the description of the tilting LAG I would pop TT+ behind if Efficacy just calls this turn. Thinking I beat Efficacy almost always and that the tilting guy has something dumb quite often.

MitchL · #6 11-14-2007, 06:18 AM

My biggest problem is that "something dumb" is all over this board. I guess my experience is that every time I try this type of squeeze the lag has me crushed. I would like this play for a board with a little different texture and I would probably play TT+ the same way as you, but the lag will be 3betting with alot of hands that beat us not just sets and straights so I would let sb in for a little overlay rather than get head up with a likely better hand that will go crazy. It would also be different if there is some kind of hand that we could put CO on and that would go crazy on this flop and the only thing I could think of is 89.

Heisenb3rg · #7 11-14-2007, 06:21 AM

Well, I think you have to be ahead of CO a decent % of the time in order for you to pull this off.

Thats something youd have to asses from the tables.. How often is he going to show up with like KJ here?
From the looks of it, it looks like he either hit his straight, has two pair or a set... You're going to have to put in a lot of bets against these hands to get to showdown.

However, I think a thinking TAG 2+2 will fold an overpair a lot here (not all the time/everyone) so that move in of itself is good...

Im just not convinced your beating CO enough AND 2+2er will fold enough for you to risk like 4BB in a pot you are clearly losing to the 2+2er.

What was the nature of the tiltings LAG spews? Was it in multiway pots too?

My guess is you should just call and fold the river UI.

TheHip41 · #8 11-14-2007, 07:52 PM

I just call and pray the SB doesn't c/r behind me.

I think you are losing to the SB, and he probalby won't fold AA here, and you might be ahead of the CO. And I really don't want to pay 3bets when I can pay 1 to see the river.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #9 11-14-2007, 08:21 PM

Efficacy, Not 3betting the flop is a large mistake. In a pot this size you cannot let the tag draw profitably against you with his overcards.

We all make errors in judgement when playing poker cuz we cant see our opponents cards. We do the best we can with the imperfect informaion we have. But one thing we should all not tolerate in our games is what I call fundamental errors. Through study and hardwork, we should be able to eradicate ourselves from all these type of errors. Not 3betting the flop in this particular situation is a perfect example of a fundamental error.

About the turn: This pot is very large. We all know that the SB has a better hand than you. Despite the action, there also appears to be a decent chance that we have the CO beat. Given that we have to call the turn, I know this much, if there is ever a time to raise the turn to try to force an overpair out, this is it.

I personally wouldve raised the turn and went for it. Im not expecting the SB to fold very often, but he doesnt have to fold often for this play to be a total coup. Given the large pot size, I think the rewards outweigh the risks of this play. Can I prove this? Absolutely not. But I know one thing, I wouldnt need to speculate afterwards on whether the SB would fold an overpair here or not becuz I would put him to the test and find out the old fashioned way.

StellarWind · #10 11-14-2007, 08:45 PM

I don't understand why you would coldcall the flop with a hand like this. I would 3-bet in hopes of driving SB's overcards out of the pot.

Even if it doesn't work I may still be better off for having asserted myself. Forcing SB to give an honest assessment of his hand will make it much easier to make the right decision later on. By just calling I encourage my opponents to overplay weak hands, leaving me to wonder whether I should believe them.

This hand is a good example of the interrelatedness of the different streets. Having misplayed the flop you face an insoluble problem on the turn. Hero's raise represents a set which could easily convince SB to lay down an overpair. You may also buy a free showdown for when your draw busts. But the raise will be extremely expensive if you get 3-bet by a monster especially since your outs are fairly unsound. You just don't know.