Am I folding this AJ to a shove?

[J.A.K.]

Been at this table for less than 3 orbits. Villain has been somewhat active without having to show. I felt I was ahead of his range, but after I repopped I genuinely did not know what I would do if he pushed (not a good way to proceed I know). So, is the re-raise amount ok? Do I call a push or fold?


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
(Ante: t50)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t5084
UTG+1: t7275
MP1: t2945
MP2: t9783
Hero: t10760
Button: t6655
SB: t6282
BB: t1583

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to t800</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t2800</font>,

[nath]

Umm, not with the odds you'd be getting.

[J.A.K.]

[ QUOTE ]
Umm, not with the odds you'd be getting.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I guess the pot odds are important. I may need to quit poker. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bakes]

Call me w/t, but I muck this the first time around without a read.

[J.A.K.]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me w/t, but I muck this the first time around without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was active in the short time I had been there so I pegged him somewhat laggish. I was sure I was WB if he pushed though somewhere around 3-1 dog.

[bobneptune]

2 points here:

first, although i have enormous respect for nath's talents here and while hero seems not to be getting the right price for a call, i think AJo IS getting the right price to call a push.

blinds and antes = 1,000 + utg+ 1 raises the blind to 800 + hero re raises to 2800 makes pot = 4,600.

if utg+1 shoves, he must call hero's re raise adding 2,000 to the pot (now 6,600) + shove in the rest of his 4,475 chips making the pot 11,075.

hero's call of the shove is only 4,475, giving him pot odds to call the shove of almost exactly 2.5-1

there is only ONE hand hero is behind by significantly more than 2.5 - 1 and that is exactly AA.

hands like KK-JJ and AK and AQ he's almost exactly 2.5-1 against.

lower pairs than JJ he's 11-10 against and is getting tremendous overlay.

hands like KQ, he is ahead of and getting the price, and there is certainly a non zero chance utg+1 is on worse hands or a bluff.

unless i mucked up the math somewhere, unless you can say he's precisely on AA , its an insta call by the math.

secondly, i think re raising an utg+1 raise with AJo shows complete disdain for the gap concept, unless you have him as very laggy

[J.A.K.]

[ QUOTE ]
2 points here:

first, although i have enormous respect for nath's talents here and while hero seems not to be getting the right price for a call, i think AJo IS getting the right price to call a push.

blinds and antes = 1,000 + utg+ 1 raises the blind to 800 + hero re raises to 2800 makes pot = 4,600.

if utg+1 shoves, he must call hero's re raise adding 2,000 to the pot (now 6,600) + shove in the rest of his 4,475 chips making the pot 11,075.

hero's call of the shove is only 4,475, giving him pot odds to call the shove of almost exactly 2.5-1

there is only ONE hand hero is behind by significantly more than 2.5 - 1 and that is exactly AA.

hands like KK-JJ and AK and AQ he's almost exactly 2.5-1 against.

lower pairs than JJ he's 11-10 against and is getting tremendous overlay.

hands like KQ, he is ahead of and getting the price, and there is certainly a non zero chance utg+1 is on worse hands or a bluff.

unless i mucked up the math somewhere, unless you can say he's precisely on AA , its an insta call by the math.

secondly, i think re raising an utg+1 raise with AJo shows complete disdain for the gap concept, unless you have him as very laggy

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe Nath is agreeing w/ you. My original reason for posting was that I raised on the SOLE premise that I was ahead of villain's range w/out thought to him pushing. Nath was saying that even with the % of time I am WB, I still have odds against V's range.

And while I am at it, thoughts to the reraise amount? Is there an amount between minraise and mine that allows an easier escape from a push?

[allenciox]

Nope, once you raise preflop, you are committed to calling his reraise, there is no "safe" amount to reraise.

But reraising an EP raiser here is just simply bad poker. If he calls you are in bad shape --- stack sizes are not good for a raise here.

On the other hand, if you really think you are ahead of his raising range, then call in-position. Often you can pick up the pot postflop even when you miss. Remember, don't be in a hurry to resolve a hand when in-position, particularly when calling a raise is around 10% or so of your effective stack.

Personally, I would usually fold here against most opponents. Against a bad player that I can read well post-flop I will call. But I would never raise with these stack sizes, in-position as you are.

[Sat0ri]

Let me try throwing my two cents here:
You are getting 1:2,5 pot odds for your push, which are extremly good odds. If his range is TT+,AQ+ you still have to pot odds to call, you would have to put him on a tighter range then that to be able to fold, and from your read that doesn't seem to be the case.

About the reraise:
You put yourself in a really bad position by making the preflop reraise. First of all you need to know you need a plan what to do when he pushes, which happpens often here.

If you plan on folding to a push:
you are risking 2800 to steal a pot of 2000, he needs to fold 60%+ here to make your move marginaly profitable even without taking into account possiblity of someone else behind you waking up with a hand. You would need a very good read to make that play. Also if that is the plan, you are making an entirely read based play where your hand strength is irrelevant and essentialy turning you AJ into 72o.

If you think you are ahead and plan on calling:
In that case a far better option would be to just call him preflop and use your position.

[AceLuby]

Anyone prefer a smooth call here and see a flop?