10NL: Standard Shove Call?

[CaptVimes]

Grunch

Preflop - raise a little bit more, you have limpers. So if you normally bet 3x bb, I would bump it up to about .50. Nines are a good hand to start with, but a ton of cards can come on the flop that will either kill your action or give villains cards that have you crushed. I want to get this hand heads up if possible before the flop. The only way to do that is raise. Your weak raise actually gives players good odds to call with speculative hands.

Flop - Meh, Raise. Calling gives you no idea where you stand. It has the second advantage of being able get a free card on the turn sometimes. If villain calls you really need to proceed with caution, if they re-raise I'm folding.

As played, I fold turn, especially with no reads on villain.

[CaptVimes]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses, guys.

To LC: Yeah it was for sure a pot-sweetner since I know I'm not gonna fold out anyone who limped with that. Is this a bad play with this hand? I thought my hand rated pretty well 3-way vs limpers and wanted to play them in pos.

To Teddie: I guess I felt like if the money did manage to go in (not by my accord as bottomset mentions) that I was either a slight dog to overs + FD or crushed by 22 or 66.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be amazed at how easy it is to fold limpers with a proper raise.

Also, your range of what villain is holding is way to narrow. You know people at this level limp with anything including JJ+. You've done nothing to narrow villains range by the turn to only put them on the hands you are.

[Warren Harding]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to hear some reasons why you think this. I'm not so sure I want to in this case because at this level people won't give up draws anyway and he could actually be a favorite without a made hand. The only thing I could conceivably do is min-raise if I want to keep the pot at any reasonable size for my hand and then I'm sure as hell not calling a shove with two to come. I feel pretty good about just calling with what is likely the best hand ATM.

[/ QUOTE ]

By RR the flop, you force some hands to fold, forfeiting their chance to win the pot, or you induce them to call more then they can profitably. There are typiclly few draws that are an outright favorite over any made hand.

[Teddie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think in this case if hes not willing to stack off on the flop, he should be c/f the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might have misread the hand. I didn't bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


I couldnt rememberr if you acted first or not, still not a huge difference. If your not willing to stack off on a nice turn card(unless he has A6) for you there is no point calling his flop raise.

If he doesnt get it in on the turn he's doing it on the river as any turn bet he makes his leaving him pot committed on the river so hes definitly shoving there.

You should also raise pre-flop more. The standard is 4bbs with 1bb per limper. If you dont like doing this i would just limp along with the rest of them.

I used too do the same until i asked here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post10778851

Some good replies explaining it why.

I dont know what you think his range is but i stuck this is pokerstove and you are 60-40 favourite, this is good enough for me too be raising that flop as you dont want him to be getting cheap cards.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.610% 59.52% 00.09% 15321 22.50 { 9c9s }
Hand 1: 40.390% 40.30% 00.09% 10374 22.50 { 88-77, 22, Th9h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 8h7h, 7h5h, A6o }

[da_fume]

CaptVimes: Yeah, I hear what you are saying. What I meant by my statement was that I know I'm not folding them out with the sized bet I went with. Also, the range I gave there was what i felt like would come back over top of me on the flop. If I take a card and it's not scary then I become a decent favorite to the hands like Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Teddie: Your post is basically the answer to my original "is this call standard?" question. So thanks!

Yes, I did call. As it turned out he had 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the nice combo-draw.

[da_fume]

[ QUOTE ]
By RR the flop, you force some hands to fold, forfeiting their chance to win the pot, or you induce them to call more then they can profitably. There are typiclly few draws that are an outright favorite over any made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm just kinda gun-shy about my ability to move someone off a draw at this level without a read and a lot of the draws they could have happen to be a favorite against my particular hand. I do re-raise in this situation with decent regularity but I guess I was feeling a little scared and wanted to see a safe turn card.

Thanks again for the great responses, I learned more than I had anticipated.

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm just kinda gun-shy about my ability to move someone off a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

With this flop, and with that betting from villian, I'm not afraid of a draw. I'm afraid of a set.

I hope villian has a draw! Because I know that, since I have position, I will bet enough that villian will be getting incorrect odds to chase his draw. And if I do that, then I hope he calls!

By forcing villian to pay too much to chase his draw, I will lose a mid-size pot one time in five but will win a mid-size pots four times in five.

Yum, yum, I love money! Particularly when it's other people's money!

But with all those small cards, I know it's really possible that one of the limpers called with a small pocket pair and hit a set. In fact, it is nearly exactly as likely that someone hit a set as it is that they hit good draw.

So when someone aggresses at me, and I have position, a flop raise puts them to an early decition - Pay not just too much buy WAY too much to chase their draw, fold a hand like top or middle pair, or reveal that they have genuine strength by calling.

In this situation, if they call my flop raise and then bet the turn, I happily fold my 9's. If they check the turn then I can check behind or bet, depending on reads.

Whenever you have position, you should strive to maintain the initiative and be the aggressor.

I've read in books a thousand times that in NL position is one of the most important factors, but the more I play the more that gets driven home. When you learn to use position you win more with your winning hands and lose less with your loosers.

[Larude]

MHO is that I like potsweeteners more with smaller pocketpairs, or speculative SC SOG hands, which you could easily get away from postflop. 99 is a decent hand and if undercards come it is difficult to get away from it immediately, I would just raise here for value, if you raise to 0,50 or 0,60 you are also gonna sweeten the pot, one of them will come along and then you have excellent position to take it down postflop or still hit a monster.

[checkmate36]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you just raising pf as a pot sweetener? The general theory around here is 4X bb + 1 for each limper. In this hand that would mean a pfr of $.60, which would hopefully get you hu to the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Just keep it simple, no sence in sweetening the pot at these levels since they will stack off with gutshots and other weak holdings.

Getting these flops headsup is an important thing to do. It will often allow you to take down pots with a cbet even if you completely miss the flop or if overcards come to your pocket pair.