Calling down with J8 unimproved.

[pzhon]

I had J8s in the SB, I open-completed, and the BB raised. I called down unimproved, and won.

The BB was overly aggressive, and would almost always bet if I checked to him (and would raise if I just completed the SB). Bluffing did not seem to be a profitable option.

What's the most favorable board for calling on the river with J8 unimproved, where both cards play? Where only the jack plays? What are some borderline situations, assuming I'm getting 6:1 on the river? What's the worst possible board?

[JaredL]

well if the board is 34569 you lose to any but T8

best would probably be something like 22223.

edit: added in best.

[damaniac]

Actually you probably want something like AAKQx...lessens the probability that he has a high card, fewer combos out there that beat you.

[Jiggymike]

Probably no 'boards' are good, I would say the only time is against players who refuse to fold where you have a +EV to call down with basically any face card because he will raise with 23s and bet it down.

[Aaron_C]

ok, the only thing that seems to be left for debate in this topic seems to be the most important question.
When only the jackplays is better than when both cards play if you are up against 2 completly random hands, but possibly a better scenario is when we add certain draw possibilities.
AdKdQcAc2h would be a really nice situation to call off with against someone that will auto bet the river with any draw including the gut ten.

[Aaron_C]

clearly i meant random cards not random hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[JaredL]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually you probably want something like AAKQx...lessens the probability that he has a high card, fewer combos out there that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Since you can't catch up when behind having fewer behind options available could be the best way to go. I was thinking in terms of keeping hands that you beat from catching up to you. Your way does both.

[mudbuddha]

yeah i'd call with QQQQA onb oard too with J high

[pzhon]

I made the call because I had heard people talking about Poki calling down with jack-high, and I studied this ahead of time. I think many experienced poker players don't have much intuition about how strong jack-high is. Sometimes it is decent. Sometimes it is hopeless. <a href="www.pokerstove.com" target="_blank">PokerStove</a> is good for this type of question.

[ QUOTE ]

What's the most favorable board for calling on the river with J8 unimproved, where both cards play? Where only the jack plays?

[/ QUOTE ]
J8 unimproved can actually be a favorite over a random hand when only the jack plays. J8 has an equity of 0.617 against a random hand when the board is AAKKx, with no flush possible.

When both cards play, boards like AAK64 and AKQ64 both give J8 an equity of 0.368, enough to call when getting 2:1 odds.

[ QUOTE ]
What's the worst possible board?

[/ QUOTE ]
96543, with 4 of a suit, gives J8 0.008 equity. Out of 990 hands, J8 only ties 4 other J8 combinations and beats 6 T8 combinations. J8 can't call getting 100:1 odds.

[ QUOTE ]
What are some borderline situations, assuming I'm getting 6:1 on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll leave that for others to work on.

In the actual situation, the board was AKxxx, and J8 had an equity of about 0.26, which would allow me to call with 3:1 odds against a random hand.

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

If you call down with J8 unimproved and you win, you got lucky (unless of course you knew the player had something lower than that).

-HoldemPokerPlyr