2nd pair w/ nut flush draw

JJBuffone · #1 04-01-2007, 10:57 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($4.98)
BB ($0.98)
UTG ($2.95)
Button ($5.33)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, BB calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.36) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $0.35, BB calls $0.35, Button raises to $0.9, Hero raises to $4.86, BB calls $0.51 (All-In), Button calls $3.96.

Turn: ($10.94) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.94) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.94

This was an interesting hand from my session. I know the massive overbet push looks like a draw but I figured I was a favorite against a number of the villains possible hands. Plus he has been raising my c-bets the entire session. What do you guys think of the line I took?

Machavelli · #2 04-01-2007, 11:01 PM

I love these spots. You played it well, its generally better when villain has a full stake so you have some fold equity.

Nick C · #3 04-02-2007, 01:26 AM

The fact that Button has been raising your c-bets a lot is a factor in favor of this play, I think, and it helps too if Button will actually call with a hand that you're crushing like 87.

I am having some trouble imagining you as anything better than a coinflip versus Button's calling range, but I don't really know how the limit plays (very loose, I'd imagine).

There are, of course, the usual factors in play here: The push trades implied odds (and you are both very deep here) for folding equity, and you give up the chance to draw cheaply (if behind) while at the same time you receive some compensation in that you assure (if Villain calls the push) that you'll get paid if you outdraw Villain's hand.

There is an additional factor that is worth considering here, I think, which is that this Villain might keep betting a worse hand that he'll get away from versus a flop push. And this hand is playing so big after your preflop raise that I think this is a factor that is in your favor -- I mean, it looks to me, for instance, like you can call a turn push on most cards if it comes unless Villain would never make that push without a very strong hand, and often he'll bet less with a hand you also could be beating.

KEW · #4 04-02-2007, 02:44 AM

The overbet shove is good..Your hand has massive equity get the chips into the middle now...

Nick C · #5 04-02-2007, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The overbet shove is good..Your hand has massive equity get the chips into the middle now...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm okay with a flop push in this hand, but I honestly don't understand why that recommendation is so automatic on this forum for big combo draws and pair-plus-flush-draw hands. I mean, there are a lot of factors to consider when evalutating the play, and the situation tends to be a lot more complicated than "based on the action so far, we have an equity edge, so let's get all of our money in immediately." Sometimes that equity edge no longer exists if we get called (which doesn't necessarily make pushing bad all by itself, but still), and sometimes our implied odds are too good and too reliable to give up because we know we're drawing and also know there's also a good chance Villain will let us do so cheaply on the big streets but will also likely pay off, at least to some degree, if we catch.

Anyway, though, in the posted hand, I think the biggest argument against a push is that that play might drive out some worse hands that Villain would have continued betting with. (I mean, what I like best about our hand is our draw, but our made hand is a pretty good one too, and it has decent showdown value against our seemingly LAG opponent.)

orange · #6 04-02-2007, 03:13 AM

PF isnt the greatest but whatever.

The flop bet/3-bet AI is fine, especially vs. an aggro player. I don't like flat calling his raise as much...it leaves for really awkward turn play if we blank out and OOP.

When in position, you can make a case for calling a c/r or something like that. But when OOP, I like getting the $ in now. We have some FE vs. better hands, can see both streets if called, and have great equity vs. something like 9x. So...well played. nh.

KEW · #7 04-02-2007, 03:15 AM

The problem with not shoving is any other action we take leave us in a bad spot on the turn should we not improve..Think about these situations...

1..Hero calls and button pots the turn..

2..Hero make a "standard" re-raise that is called...

There is no way to assume villain pays us off if we do spike the flush on the turn...

What hand is villain betting and raising with that our pair of 8s can beat UI???

With these combo draws even when you are behind it only take a small amout of FE% to swing the hand to a big +EV winner...This is not true if you wait until the turn..

Combo draws want to see 2 more cards and the only way to insure this is to shove it in on the flop..Combo draws suffer greatly when forced to fold on the turn..

Pushing is also great for Metagame reason..You will be seen as a maniac and some will fear raising you with less then the nuts..

Nick C · #8 04-02-2007, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PF isnt the greatest but whatever.

The flop bet/3-bet AI is fine, especially vs. an aggro player. I don't like flat calling his raise as much...it leaves for really awkward turn play if we blank out and OOP.

When in position, you can make a case for calling a c/r or something like that. But when OOP, I like getting the $ in now. We have some FE vs. better hands, can see both streets if called, and have great equity vs. something like 9x. So...well played. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the hand is fine too, and I also think the reasoning in this post is good.

However, I did want to comment on what I placed in bold. FWIW, I think that given the pot size and the remaining stack sizes, we're already practically committed to showing down once our LAG opponent raises the flop. We'll be ahead sometimes on the turn no matter what Button does on that street, and when we're not (which is usually, if he bets enough that we're considering folding, which would pretty much have to be a push), we'll be getting about 7:4 with what will often be 14 clean outs.

orange · #9 04-02-2007, 03:26 AM

Well, if we called the .90 raise, we have like $3.90 or whatever in a $2.80 pot (given BB not calling). I just like to be the aggressor in most cases, and c/c-ing a shove on a blank turn isnt the best spot to be.

KEW · #10 04-02-2007, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF isnt the greatest but whatever.

The flop bet/3-bet AI is fine, especially vs. an aggro player. I don't like flat calling his raise as much...it leaves for really awkward turn play if we blank out and OOP.

When in position, you can make a case for calling a c/r or something like that. But when OOP, I like getting the $ in now. We have some FE vs. better hands, can see both streets if called, and have great equity vs. something like 9x. So...well played. nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the hand is fine too, and I also think the reasoning in this post is good.

However, I did want to comment on what I placed in bold. FWIW, I think that given the pot size and the remaining stack sizes, we're already practically committed to showing down once our LAG opponent raises the flop. We'll be ahead sometimes on the turn no matter what Button does on that street, and when we're not (which is usually, if he bets enough that we're considering folding, which would pretty much have to be a push), we'll be getting about 7:4 with what will often be 14 clean outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here an old thread by ELD that help me a lot with these draws...

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...te_id/1#import