2nd pair w/ nut flush draw

[JJBuffone]

Exactly, the other reasoning behind my shove is I didn't want to play this hand out of position against this very aggressive opponent after a blank hits the turn.

[Nick C]

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The problem with not shoving is any other action we take leave us in a bad spot on the turn should we not improve..Think about these situations...

1..Hero calls and button pots the turn..

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I guess we either call or push (a pot-sized bet from Villain would leave us with only about $1 behind anyway).

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2..Hero make a "standard" re-raise that is called...

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FWIW, in this particular case, a standard reraise is a push. Thanks to our big preflop raise and the two calls of that raise, the pot is bloated [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

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There is no way to assume villain pays us off if we do spike the flush on the turn...

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Yeah, I know. The same is true for spiking aces up. This is one of the arguments for a push.

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What hand is villain betting and raising with that our pair of 8s can beat UI???

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Versus this Villain, it sounds like Q8 and 86 and bottom pair and over(s) plus a straight draw are all possibilities, along with (of course) a worse flush draw.

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With these combo draws even when you are behind it only take a small amout of FE% to swing the hand to a big +EV winner...This is not true if you wait until the turn..

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I agree that folding equity is a factor in favor of a push. In fact, I think it's usually the biggest factor in favor of the play.

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Combo draws want to see 2 more cards and the only way to insure this is to shove it in on the flop..Combo draws suffer greatly when forced to fold on the turn..

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FWIW, if we eliminate all folding equity on a flop push, then what you're saying here is no longer true unless our implied odds are also practically non-existent. (And what I just described is an unrealistic assumption, but my point is that there are a lot of competing factors involved when considering the play.)

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Pushing is also great for Metagame reason..You will be seen as a maniac and some will fear raising you with less then the nuts..

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You may be right.


Anyway, I don't really want to sound like I favor a flop call in the posted hand. I would have pushed too. I just don't think we should look at our hand, regardless of the circumstances, see a pair plus a flush draw, and automatically think "PUSH!"