Quick question for pro life people.

[tame_deuces]

Have to admit, I have never met a pro-lifer (on abortion issues) in the real world either. Seems like a very alien view to me.

[hitch1978]

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I'm pro choice because I don't consider the fetus (or a lower level tard, for that matter) to be human.

That said, I don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves, with few exceptions.

My justification for suicide prevention is that the vast majority of suicides, if given a clear mind or eternity to think about the choice, would not choose to kill themselves. The desire for life is powerful but it can be clouded by negative emotions and mental illness. I don't think anyone would have a problem from preventing a schizophrenic from cutting themselves repeatedly because they believe there are demons inside trying to get out, and in the same sense, people who no longer wish to live are usually confused and detached from the world. The finality of suicide gives the right to intervene, in my opinion.

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Phil, This has been on my mind for a few days.

I wouldn't say nescesarily that you are the best poster on SMP, but IMHO I would put you in the top 1. As a result I was reluctant to steam in, but, after some thought, I would very much appreciate it if you would clarify what you mean here.

[txag007]

"No, but I am crazy."

Does a person's death affect other people? If you don't think the answer to that is yes, then you are the crazy one my friend.

[Stu Pidasso]

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The real world = the US of A or Iran? I don't go to either often enough

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If the world you live in doesn't have a diversity of opinion, than you don't live in a real world.

Stu

[Schmitty 87]

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Pro life is a little exotic to me, because it's not a view I ever encounter in real life.

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Its more likely that you live in a bubble than you've never encountered a pro-life view in real life. If you've truely never encountered a pro-life view, I'm sorry but I really pity you. Its time you come and join the real world.

[/ QUOTE ] The real world = the US of A or Iran? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't go to either often enough [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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Ya the fetus isn't a human being, but it's not really just a clump of cells either. People have abortions to avoid having children.

I myself am pro-life, but I've gone back and forth multiple times in the past few years, and am still completely open to the pro-choice position. It's obviously a complicated issue, but I don't see why we aren't playing it on the safe side here.

[Schmitty 87]

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I'm not sure if there is much point to defending it. They think someone should be prohibited from making his own decisions about himself/his own body when they feel they have good reason to believe that he is about to make a mistake that can't be corrected later. It's a way to look at people and autonomy that I don't agree with, and I think it's a dangerous slippery slope. But I don't expect to convince anyone, so I left it at calling them crazy.

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In having sex, a woman is making a decision about her body. If she isn't prepared for the consequence of having a human being begin to form inside of her, then she should not be having sex. As for having a child possibly being a mistake, well, sure, but aborting the fetus carries similar risks. And, to be honest, I don't see the slippery slope involved in outlawing abortion. Could you elaborate? Children can't be born any other way. Pro-life advocates don't deny a woman's rights with regards to her own body, they simply don't deny the possibility of rights for the potential human being living inside of her either.

[One Outer]

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Have to admit, I have never met a pro-lifer (on abortion issues) in the real world either. Seems like a very alien view to me.

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I have, but only because they are in my family. Outside of that I've only met a handful. They seem a little unbalanced to me.

[One Outer]

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I'm pro choice because I don't consider the fetus (or a lower level tard, for that matter) to be human.

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Interesting, because this cuts right to the heart of the abortion debate. The real debate is about personhood. I dont' want to hijack the thread. Maybe you could PM why you dont' feel that a fetus or a lower level retard count as people.

fwiw, I agree that they're not people either, I'm just curious of other people's reasoning.

[Phil153]

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I'm pro choice because I don't consider the fetus (or a lower level tard, for that matter) to be human.


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Do you believe that there should be any consequences for the mother if she engages in blatant activities while pregnant and planning to give birth, that will result in permanent suffering of the child (ie drinking/drugging while pregnant that results in abnormalities )?

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Killer question. There's a reasonable foreseeability argument to be made here, but apart from that I don't know.

[Phil153]

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My justification for suicide prevention is that the vast majority of suicides, if given a clear mind or eternity to think about the choice, would not choose to kill themselves.
The desire for life is powerful but it can be clouded by negative emotions and mental illness.

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I don't think you're right to generalize like this, but even if you were right, I see no reason why you shouldn't allow them to do as they please. If they wanna listen to you, and you want to talk them out of it, fine, but imposing your righteous views on others is autoritarian and disgusting.

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Because most of the time it's not "them" doing it. If someone had syphilis enter their brain which gave them a raging desire to kill themselves, would you stand by as they did it? What about if the infection was 100% curable?

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I don't think anyone would have a problem from preventing a schizophrenic from cutting themselves repeatedly because they believe there are demons inside trying to get out,.

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I do. If they want to cut themselves it's their choice... What gives you the right to decide for them unless they gave you the specific command to take care of them when they can't?

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Again, it's not *them* doing it. Your concept of "them" is flawed. Illnesses in their brain are causing them to believe things which aren't true, and to see things which aren't there. It's the equivalent of kidnapping a normal person and convincing them that their children will die unless they commit suicide. Many parents would. Would you stand by and let a sane person kill themselves because they believe something that isn't true?

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and in the same sense, people who no longer wish to live are usually confused and detached from the world. The finality of suicide gives the right to intervene, in my opinion.

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The "finality"? So if I want to donate my house to charity and live in the streets, you will try to stop me too? I think you ought to revise your ethical positions. They're not consistent.

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Yes, the finality. Donating your house to charity and living in the streets doesn't involve destroying your consciousness for all of eternity.