hand protection in practice

Riku · #1 12-01-2006, 02:56 PM

Button is 84/0/0.6AF

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Im counting 3 oc outs and 2 outs from the 2 bdsdraws. I should clearly at least call. But raise for protection ?

When you have nothing but a draw, isn´t raising for protection basically just for cleaning your outs ? Cleaning the oc outs for possible 2 pairs some one might get with A or Q. So im cleaning my outs and pay a higher price for it - 2 bets, that is. Don´t i need a double sized pot for this play to be profitable ?

Turn: (7.20 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero...

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

Man of Means · #2 12-01-2006, 03:55 PM

This is not a horrible play, but one you should use sparingly against the right set of opponents. Button is a passive player so you are likely behind and drawing to 6 outs (BDSD worth about 0.5 each but discount your pair outs somewhat). The board is not really drawy so your raise is -EV for two other reasons:

1) you encourage weaker Ax and Qx hands to fold that would otherwise pad the pot and pay you off
2) On a board like this, you will rarely get the stronger hands (A3,A4,65) to fold and effectively charge yourself double.

[Against a maniac/laggy player, a c/r on a dry board to protect Ace-high is perfectly fine...then if you get everyone to fold, you c/c to showdown unimproved.]

Riku · #3 12-01-2006, 04:14 PM

I have always specifically thought that raising to protect your over cards is for trying to make hands that have 1 pair but make 2 pair when you hit, to fold. Which is what tried to do here. But maybe i just don´t know in which sitautions it should be applied... Only with strong draws like flush or straight (open and gutshot) draws with oc (at least those i remember from SSHE) ?

Man of Means · #4 12-01-2006, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have always specifically thought that raising to protect your over cards is for trying to make hands that have 1 pair but make 2 pair when you hit, to fold. Which is what tried to do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in one SSHE example, hero has A9s and a flush draw on 7-4-2 flop and acts directly after the flop bettor. Raising there promotes the ace outs because it may cause a better ace (A-10) to fold and makes it more likely that if hero pairs the 9 it will hold up as top pair (folding out K/J/Q/Tx hands). In a big pot this raise is a better move than simply calling "to keep customers in for the flush draw"

Here you're looking to fold out A3 & A4 specifically (you can't figure anyone has Q4/Q3) but I am saying most players will recognize this board is pretty good for A3/A4/any pair and won't fold. And there's no way AT/QT is folding.

Riku · #5 12-01-2006, 04:37 PM

Okey, thanks a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think the same example also suggested raising with a gutshot and over cards.

btspider · #6 12-01-2006, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okey, thanks a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think the same example also suggested raising with a gutshot and over cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

position is a huge plus too

drzen · #7 12-01-2006, 08:05 PM

In this big pot, this play is fine. A3 folds for two bets and you just made money when you turn your ace. 76 probably folds too, so if you get lucky with a str8, you're not outdrawn. Everyone checked, so they don't love their hands, and there are no obvious draws on the board.

It's perfectly possible you're ahead even. Button probably doesn't have a ten. He might have a small pair but he could just as easily have something like KJ/KQ/A7-A9/QJ/J9 and think if no one else wants it, he'll have it. For a man who gets into as many pots as he does, he's aggro enough.

Having raised, you could lead the turn and fold to a raise. As played, I'd call.

drzen · #8 12-01-2006, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a horrible play, but one you should use sparingly against the right set of opponents. Button is a passive player

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he isn't. AF is not an absolute figure. He's probably more aggressive than we are.

[ QUOTE ]
so you are likely behind and drawing to 6 outs (BDSD worth about 0.5 each but discount your pair outs somewhat).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd consider the backdoor draws worth a bit more than half an out, and I wouldn't discount my overcard outs much, if at all. When it's checked to him, this guy is as likely to have a pair of 3s as a pair of Ts. His range is so huge that while he could have Q3 or A3, he could have a ton of other hands, so that you are only a fraction of an out down.

[ QUOTE ]
The board is not really drawy so your raise is -EV

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

[ QUOTE ]
for two other reasons:

1) you encourage weaker Ax and Qx hands to fold that would otherwise pad the pot and pay you off

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, when the river comes an ace, I'm delighted that A6 has folded. You just don't get to choose which hands you fold out and which you get to keep in.

[ QUOTE ]
2) On a board like this, you will rarely get the stronger hands (A3,A4,65) to fold and effectively charge yourself double.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong. 65 probably doesn't fold but the others do. But 65 is drawing against us, so it's not us who is charged double.

[ QUOTE ]
[Against a maniac/laggy player, a c/r on a dry board to protect Ace-high is perfectly fine...then if you get everyone to fold, you c/c to showdown unimproved.]

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero's play has given him the best possible chance to win this big pot for the cost of one bet. You want to call, let the whole table call along with you and try to outdraw all seven of them! Hmmm, good luck.

drzen · #9 12-01-2006, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okey, thanks a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think the same example also suggested raising with a gutshot and over cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

position is a huge plus too

[/ QUOTE ]

He had relative position, which he used to perfection. Okay, I'd rather the bettor was the CO and I was the button, but you can't have everything.

Entity · #10 12-01-2006, 08:26 PM

The combination here of not-enough-outs to make your hand with spending 2 bets on this flop and not-many-hands that will fold for 2 cold make me prefer a call ("peel") here much more than a checkraise. Hands like A5 aren't folding the flop for two bets, and even if they were, vs. this particular player you don't have enough outs to be paying 2 bets on your investment, given that you are out of position.

I'd call here and see what develops on the turn. I'm usually checkfolding the turn.

Rob