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  #41  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:52 AM
Nonfiction Nonfiction is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

Grunch,

No, we could not have won Vietnam. It is impossible for an attacker to inflict his will on a defender who refuses to be defeated. Only a defender can wage absolute war, that of guerrilla warfare. War is an extension of politics, and all wars have a political objective. If the defender has the will to never admit defeat, he can make sure that the attacker will never be able to succeed in accomplishing its political objectives. The attacker is then forced to either change its political objectives, resulting in victory for the defender.

This has been proven many times, especially when the attacker is a democratic nation (as are most world powers). For modern examples you can look at every single war of independence against colonial powers, as well as Vietnam (for US), Afghanistan (for soviets) and Iraq (for US). If the defender has the will to resists to the end, no matter the destruction rained down on them, they will eventually emerge victorious. The only way for an attacker to succeed in its task against such an opponent is total and complete genocide (which will obviously not happen when the attacker is a democratic nation).

Btw all of this was written almost 300 years ago by Clausewitz. Dude was such a genius.
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  #42  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:58 AM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

[ QUOTE ]
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Clearly, the war was unwinnable. Because the government we were supporting was not supported by the people. The revolt against Diem started in the south.

Clearly the American public supported the war. As late as February 1968 23% of Americans defined themselves as "doves" and 61% "hawks."

Clearly it was the lies of our government, as revealed in the Pentagon Papers, and its brutality, that turned public opinion. We dropped more bombs than were dropped in the history of the world on South Vietnam, the "country" we were supposed to be defending. I suppose had we taken General LeMay's advice, and bombed the Vienamese back to the stone age, we could have killed every man, woman and child in the country and thus "won" the war." Short of that, victory was impossible.

"Insanity" is not the right word to use for McCain's viewpoint. He is simply wrong.

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and so are you. <font color="white"> and you like baseball! what a maroon </font>

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Can you elaborate? I am genuinely interested.

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There isnt much to elaborate on, the war was "winnable". People may differ in what constituted winning, and people may differ on whether the ends would justify the means of winning, but it is unquestionable that under some definition of winning and at some cost, it was winnable.

And the definition wasn't particularly onerous and victory wasnt very far off in many military experts opinion.
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  #43  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:15 AM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

In a strictly military sense, we won the war. Yes we dropped a huge number of bombs. A good deal of them were on militarily insignificant targets. Many times we struck the same targets over and over, going "same way, different day". This incidentally, was definitely a factor in the number of aircraft that were shot down. Once we made the decision to start striking the heart of the North Vietnamese, there was a marked change of heart on the part of the leadership. There is a great quote on the palpable effect of the B52 raids late in the war from Admiral Stockdale, I'll look it up tomorrow in my books for all of you.

If you dont think Communism was worth fighting in Vietnam, just take a look at some of the actions of the Communist leadership after the departure of US forces. Its not for nothing that we have such a relatively large population of Vietnamese immigrants in the United States. As an interesting aside, in my experience in the military so far (almost 10 years now), there is a small but significant number of Vietnamese people (at least in the Navy).

If nothing else, Vietnam is a testament to the dangers of the civilian leadership to try and completely run a war. I'm not saying we shouldnt have the structure we have in place now, but the once the civilian policy makers make the decision to go to war, they ought to leave the running of it to the hands of the people that are there to do it.

For better or worse, Vietnam left a distinct mark on the US military and one that I feel is only now really starting to diminish in any appreciable respect.
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  #44  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:49 AM
MidGe MidGe is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

[ QUOTE ]
In a strictly military sense, we won the war.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL


The vietnam war was won, without a doubt by the Vietcong! It was a humiliating defeat for the US strategists.

The OP question is of little import, it implies a great big "If" and many subordinates ones. To me Vietnam was the first objective sign of the weakening of American imperialism. It has gone downhill ever since. It simply showed that technological superiority has little to do with cultural will and history.

US:Vietcong - 0:1

Simple as. Of course, there are many revisionists views in the US, as other wars have been lost by the US also, since. Not all, but a sufficient numbers, to question US world superiority! I mean the US could not even achieve a victory against Cuba! Cuba is still there thumbing its nose at the US! Talk about David and Goliath! LOL!
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  #45  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:04 AM
vulturesrow vulturesrow is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a strictly military sense, we won the war.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL


The vietnam war was won, without a doubt by the Vietcong! It was a humiliating defeat for the US strategists.

The OP question is of little import, it implies a great big "If" and many subordinates ones. To me Vietnam was the first objective sign of the weakening of American imperialism. It has gone downhill ever since. It simply showed that technological superiority has little to do with cultural will and history.

US:Vietcong - 0:1

Simple as. Of course, there are many revisionists views in the US, as other wars have been lost by the US also, since. Not all, but a sufficient numbers, to question US world superiority! I mean the US could not even achieve a victory against Cuba! Cuba is still there thumbing its nose at the US! Talk about David and Goliath! LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!!!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] !!!!! Americans so bad at war.

Im disappointed, you didnt work in an anti-Bush rant as well. Troll on troll, troll on! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #46  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:13 AM
MidGe MidGe is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

vulturesrow

I think that anybody with a modicum of intelligence would say that the claim that in a strictly military sense, the US won the war in Vietnam, must be the obvious troll's claim. What next? the US is winning in Iraq? ORLY

That you may try to portray me as a troll, whatever your reasons, I can accept. That the majority of the posters on this forum, or any other forums, would agree with my accusing you of trolling in the above statement is also self-evident.
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:29 AM
slickss slickss is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

Uhm, define winning? Winning as in killing more people than you lose? Winning as in carpet bombing the country until it looks like a desert?

In that case, yes, the US would've won. If that is your definition of winning then the attacking side usually wins.

However, you must compare the original goals of the war with the outcome of the war. IMHO, this is the only good definition of winning a war.
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  #48  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:45 AM
zasterguava zasterguava is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

The US pretty much DID WIN the war against (South) Vietnam. The real aim was to 'prevent economic and social development in Vietnam'. In this sense the aims of the government and the success of the military proved the war to be a great success- of course by any moral and sane view the war was a tragic disgrace, but, Vietnam remains to be a failure with no meaningful development and this was the ONLY viable aim of the US government. We now KNOW that the claims that Vietnam had important material resources (tin,rubber ...) has been proven false and their material insignificant, the containment of communism - hardly, Vietnam was more nationalism than communism, domino theory- McNamara even admits that was BS, Minh; puppet of the Kremlin? proven to be bs, protect national security- lol... as stated the US succeeded in its only real aims in Vietnam; halting socio-economic development and meaningful prosperity of the Vietnamise.
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  #49  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:51 AM
zasterguava zasterguava is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

[ QUOTE ]
I think that anybody with a modicum of intelligence would say that the claim that in a strictly military sense, the US won the war in Vietnam

[/ QUOTE ]

Midge, I have read anti-vietnam war essays that state the military had 'unprecedented success' in Vietnam...
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  #50  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:59 AM
Kaj Kaj is offline
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Default Re: Could We Have Won Vietnam?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that anybody with a modicum of intelligence would say that the claim that in a strictly military sense, the US won the war in Vietnam

[/ QUOTE ]

Midge, I have read anti-vietnam war essays that state the military had 'unprecedented success' in Vietnam...

[/ QUOTE ]

The goal of military action is to help achieve political goals.

Our political goals in Vietnam were not met.

End of story.

To define military "success" by any other measure is ridiculous.

As a former military officer, it pains me to see active duty officers like vulture get this one so wrong. There is no such thing as winning a war in a "strictly military sense". That's like winning a football game in a "strictly rushing yardage sense". Clauswitz 101: "war is politics".
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