OESD - Tricky turn decision - Page 2

Shillx · #11 11-03-2006, 04:33 AM

Fold an OESD? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Might be dogma around here but never fold an OESD. It is like saying no to free beer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

knockonwood · #12 11-03-2006, 10:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold an OESD? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Might be dogma around here but never fold an OESD. It is like saying no to free beer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. Especially considering the lone K pair could hold up.

Heron · #13 11-03-2006, 10:43 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
I would not call this. Probably at least one of your opponents already has a straight. In that case you would be drawing for a tie.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] HUH? If someone already has a straight, then there is no way for the hero to draw to a split pot if he hits his straight. Hero has the nut straight draw and no one can chop w/ hero if they already have a made hand.

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That's embarassing indeed. I must have confused the hole cards with the community cards. Too much beer is the only explanation I can offer for this.

btspider · #14 11-03-2006, 01:56 PM

you can raise this PF.

call the turn. prob just call the riv if you catch a pair. raise w/ a straight.

Conny · #15 11-03-2006, 02:09 PM

Thank you for your input. I thought this was quite a marginal call and perhaps it is. What made me call this was probably the action on the flop. Checked around. I figured that if someone had a flushdraw, or a oesd, on the flop they would bet it. Here goes the complete hand:

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (13.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, SB caps, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac Jd (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Qs Kh (straight, ace high).
CO has Jh 7c (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 27.50 BB.

bozlax · #16 11-03-2006, 02:20 PM

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You can't call this.

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Wow. We've all taken the exact opposite stand of the AA+gutty hand that's on the front page, too. Interesting.

You can't give yourself full outs for any of your draws due to the presence of the flush draws. Your remaining K and Q outs are further tainted by concerns that they are reverse-dominated, put possible straights on the board, and may be already dead to a set. You're getting 4.25:1 from the pot (call it 4.75:1, I guess, since you can pretty well count on SB at least calling), immediate, but you can't count on getting a lot of river action from hands you beat if you hit, so you have to find yourself at least 7-8 outs to make this call (even if you disregard the possibility that this will be 3-bet/capped with 3 players yet to act behind you), and I'm not seeing that many.

Edit: just saw the results. Ug-lee. Good for you for finding Villans with two hands that you DID have enough outs against. Have you met my friend BBV?

milesdyson · #17 11-03-2006, 02:26 PM

dude boz, you're wrong.

if there are flush draws out, then they're calling the turn, so the odds you're getting on your draw are even better. the bettor and raiser basically always have made hands. you cant just say, "look, our odds are so crappy, PLUS the guys behind have flush draws." if they have the draws, they call and we get a better price on the call.

this is such an easy call. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

also, a 9 is a disgusting money card putting 79TJ on the board. and btw we had zero pair outs. the bare minimum we have here is 6 nut outs, though, and if we only have 6, then we're getting a better price than the immediate one.

Xhad · #18 11-03-2006, 02:30 PM

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Wow. We've all taken the exact opposite stand of the AA+gutty hand that's on the front page, too. Interesting.

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I thought the same thing. People want to call a made hand that has like no chance of being best and 3 tainted outs getting about half proper odds against 2 opponents who like their hands, but not a nut draw with a few extra possible outs which is short by less than 1BB in a situation where the turn bettor might just be taking a stab. WTF.

Conny · #19 11-03-2006, 02:32 PM

I have some feeling that this is not a good call. Perhaps its just the result that convinces me that it was a pretty nice call! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not that good at abrevations (or english at all for that matter). Who is your friend BBV? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TheLamprey · #20 11-03-2006, 03:09 PM

Am I crazy for wanting to just fold this KQ preflop in early position? It seems like a great trap hand where you can pick up 1 pair and get sucked into playing a big pot OOP with the worst hand. It's not soooted and KQ does not make that many straights.

I mean, anybody can raise/reraise behind us PF and I don't really want to end up playing KQ in EP for 2bets. I also don't like spewing 1SB PF and then folding when it's 2 or 3 more back to me.