Hand from Borgata WPT

[ZeeJustin]

The details in this hand are crucial. Please read it twice, and think about it carefully before posting.

Borgata $10,000 WPT - 30k starting stack and it's level 2 - 50/100 blinds

UTG is a typical Armenian guy in his 30's. He looks wealthy, and I don't know if he's actually Armenian, but he plays like one. That means that he likes to bluff, get tricky, and overvalues the importance of reads. He's competent and thinking, but would probably get killed in a typical online game.

The BB is a white guy in his mid 30's with a sports cap. He doesn't seem rich, and probably satellited into this event. He has had a beer or two, and has been talking about football with another player at the table. He seems like a relatively nice guy. Probably has some experience in home games and/or low stakes in the casinos, but isn't a high stakes player. He has been tight, solid, straightforward, and not tricky at all. He bluffed once vs the old lady. It was a good bluff, and everyone at the table was surprised to see him flip it over. It wasn't a huge all-in or anything crazy like that. He could use a bit more aggression in his game, but isn't terrible by any means, and is rather good compared to the typical east coast satellite player.

I have been playing looser than most at the table. People haven't been trying to play pots vs me, and most of them think I am good. I have been somewhat tight after the flop, but very aggressive, and haven't shown down many hands.

UTG limps for 100. Folds to me in the SB. I call with red 8's. The BB meekishly says raise, kind of under his voice if you know what I mean, and I make a note to myself that there's a pretty decent chance he has a huge hand here. When he throws out 500 more chips (making it 600 total), that somewhat confirms my suspicion. Armenian and I both call without thinking about it.

Flop (1800 in pot): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I go for a check raise with my bottom set, but it checks around.

Turn (1800 in pot): T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet out 1300. The BB throws in a 5k chip and a 1k chip. After 3 seconds, he says, "Call!".

UTG and I are silent. The other players at the table debate it, and one calls over the floor. Obviously after hearing the situation, the floor says it's a raise. While the explanation process is going on, the BB says several times that he meant to call. He is very adamant about it too. He doesn't seem upset at the ruling or anything, but I guess he just wants to make it clear that he wanted to call.

The Armenian guy plays with his chips. He gets out 15k chips like he's planning on raising, stares down the BB a bit, but thinks better of it and folds. It sure seemed like he was thinking about making a big bluff, but decided against it.

Action is on me. The BB has roughly 16k behind, and I cover him by about another 16-18k. If you suggest a call, state your river line as well.

NO SHORT ANSWERS WITHOUT EXPLANATIONS PLEASE

There is a key to this hand that requires deduction from what I have written. IMHO, there is a clear answer once you figure out the key. The great Alan Sass, and the legendary Thorladen were able to deduce it. I was not. Can you?

[adanthar]

I kinda assume the Armenian guy is the "Armenian Express" dude? He's super clowny...

...and this seems like you're getting angleshot hardcore.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda assume the Armenian guy is the "Armenian Express" dude? He's super clowny...


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not Chris Gregorian.

And dude, come on you're a mod. No short answers without explanations please!

[ZJ123]

When first reading it over, i found it hard to believe that he would be angle shooting you, by meaning to call, but actually raise, but what bothers me his he threw out Two chips, A 1k and a 5k Chip which there is no way that you can throw out two chips and them be equal to 1300. So what was he thinking? did he think you bet 1500 and meant to throw that out? or Does he have AA or another huge hand and intended to raise. I think from everything added together, including ur preflop reads, he has AA or KK or less possibly AK/TT. I don't think a call is bad if you decide that he was genuine in his live mis click on the turn, i think thats actually preferred, but with c/folding most bets, unless he bets really small.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
When first reading it over, i found it hard to believe that he would be angle shooting you, by meaning to call, but actually raise, but what bothers me his he threw out Two chips, A 1k and a 5k Chip which there is no way that you can throw out two chips and them be equal to 1300. So what was he thinking? did he think you bet 1500 and meant to throw that out? or Does he have AA or another huge hand and intended to raise. I think from everything added together, including ur preflop reads, he has AA or KK or less possibly AK/TT. I don't think a call is bad if you decide that he was genuine in his live mis click on the turn, i think thats actually preferred, but with c/folding most bets, unless he bets really small.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was implying that he meant to throw out a 1k and a 500 chip rather than a 1k and 5k chip. That is not the key to this hand.

[Mr.WeakTight]

I think he has AA KK maybe AK or TT. your read PF was a possibly huge hand. he migh also have QJs and the under the breath thing was not b/c of a huge hand but b/c he knows he shouldn't raise with QJs but he also knows he needs to show more aggression or b/c he's worried about the Armenian limp/re-raising with premium.

now I don't know what chip denominations there are available with two chips that could have made up 1300 - it would usually take a 1k and 3 100 chips - that's four chips. so it was no accident that he put in a 2 chip 6k raise. he wants you to call or raise. you are definitely behind and I would fold.

[benlj21]

I think the key to this hand is that he said so many times that he meant to call. I think it's possible that he did mean to call, but by saying so he's probably just trying to cover up his true strength. I just don't think he'd say that if he was weak, because he would fear that you would 3-bet him now. So he must welcome that 3-bet, and he must have a stronger hand than you do.

[mastr]

Hey Justin, I had a hand extremely extremely similar happen to me at same event...

Thoughts on the matter, in kind of list form because its easier for me to sum up all my thoughts that way.

1. Given that he's competent/you're considered scary player/ he's BB/the UTG limper, I don't see his raise size as being necessarily an indicator of anything other then the ordinary. However, I feel given all previous hand setup situations, that he wouldn't raise without a fairly strong hand because there are tons of hands he's not going to want to play in-between you and an armenian 300 bb's deep. I would expect JJ+ AJs+ AQ+ and most broadway suiteds as the range although you probably have a much better feel for the range being at the table.

2. his check on the flop is terrifyingly strong, in the I have the deck crippled and its a rainbow board sort of way (HOWEVER, with lots of players that will not exclude AK here, not to mention the concept of how hard it is putting in 300 bb's if he checks this flop esp with an aggressive guy in UTG) Therefore, the better of a player you view him to be, the less likely I feel him to have our set beat on the flop, and the worse he is the more likely that is.

#3 Granted that I'm paranoid about these things, this has allllll the makings of an angle shoot in his turn raise. Its his way of being tricky, and perhaps he's thinking enoguh to know that UTG is crazy and maybe can be tricked into bluff cold-3betting here.

Everything about this hand makes me want to fold, and I'm thinking back at the chip colors at borg, and there's no real way to pretend the 5k is a 500... especially with the long pause. I'm somewhat baffled by his claiming the intention to call. If we call this bet, the river is so bad for us to play, as he doesn't shut down AK if he had played it this way for value UNLESS he truly did mean to just call because he's passive enough to feel he put enough chips in with that hand, which I doubt is the case.

In the end, even though I feel I've said nothing, I honestly think I throw it away because I think we're beat a ton here, we have miserable reverse implied odds, our table seems soft from the description given..

As I read this over I hate everything, and feel the key issue has to be his mindset for checking the flop, which is much easier to divine with you actually being there. I'd base the rest of the entire hand on how you perceived his body language as he checked the flop and your opinion of his general skill level.

Lastly though, if you believed him to be genuine in wanting to have just called, an argument could be made for calling this turn raise and c/f any river bet he makes. this mindset comes from the thought that your call should lock him out a good % of time, and he shouldn't be in a spot here the requires a bluff now on the river when we check, and more importantly it seems unliekly if he somehow does have a KQss hand that he turns it into a bluff on a blank river and just lets it go check check

[ZeeJustin]

There is a very important aspect of this hand that no one has even mentioned yet.

[benlj21]

"perhaps he's thinking enough to know that UTG is crazy and maybe can be tricked into bluff cold-3betting here."
I didn't think about this but I kinda doubt it, though only ZJ can say if that's possible really.

Also, I forgot to say that I recommend folding, though mastr makes some good points about how he would play AK differently depending on how good he is. It just seems like he checked the flop either because he had AA/KK, to slowplay, or he likely had TT and was just giving up but now spiked a set.