treading lightly....

[jlocdog]

3-6 blinds on FTP (6 handed).

I feel I could have made a mistake on every street except the turn. I would prefer we ignore preflop so that we can discuss post flop decisions.

I just sat down and this is my 15th hand. Nothing crazy has happened up till now. BT has raised limpers though
twice in this time.

My stack: $600 (MP)
BT stack: $725
SB stack: $650

I limp in MP with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BT raises to $30. SB calls and BB folds. I call (will discuss below my thinking). Pot is $96. Flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, I check (??) and CO bets $75. SB calls. I call (??). Pot is $321. Turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. It gets checked around. River is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB checks. What to do?

My thinking at the time was this. Preflop is very very marginal at best I know. But I wanted to give off a wild image for later as well as set the tone to let people know that my limps are not always weak. I fold this preflop 90% of the time. This happenned to be one of the 10% occassions. Also I was all set on folding but when the SB just called I was now getting 3-1 on my money and thought my hand may be good enough to take a flop with those odds.

As far a the flop goes, I am in a tough spot here. TPWK and in the middle of two unknowns. Is c/r a better option? What about c/f here? I was planning on c/r the CO but when SB c/c here I didn't think a c/r would work as often. Plus my bet would have to be bigger now and with our stack sizes it may very well mean c/r all in here. Overcallin atleast closed the action and allowed for me to see another card and reevaluate.

On the turn the King completes the flush and puts an overcard out so I figured that is the end of the hand fo me. If anyne bets, I fold. I thought about bluffing at this pot once SB checked figuring CO was could be weak with that flop but SB could also be looking to trap here with 2 people in. How often does someone in SB's position check a flush here into 2 people? Anyways when it gets checked around I felt lost.

The river gave me 2 pair. It also put a straight on the board along with the already present flush, possible higher 2 pairs and the ever present possibility of a set for someone. SB checks again. Does a stronger hand then mine check on this river? Should I still be worried about the BT here after a checked turn? What kind of ranges do you put these guys on and more importantly what is yur action on the river? Is this a spot for a thin value bet. Do you c/c anything 'reasonable'?

As I said, I think I screwed this hand up on every street (except the turn where I stopped putting money in the pot) and would like to find a better line. Please disect my incompitence.

[luckychewy]

[ QUOTE ]
As far a the flop goes, I am in a tough spot here. TPWK and in the middle of two unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know you don't want to discuss pf but reasons like this are why you should raise/fold. if you think calling with this hand oop in the given situation is going to be ez to play post, you are far off.

as far as the river goes you have an ez v-bet of $200 fold to a raise from either player. sb probably has a worse queen you just 2-outted, and button could have a lot of diff stuff, ranging from 1 pair to air...i might actually call a raise from him since he shouldn't be raising JT and that's all i can really see him representing since not betting a flush against 2 players on that turn would be pretty odd.

[rockythecat99]

Check, straights and flushes out there. If you bet what worse hand will call you? Maybe a dumb AK/AQ.
Check calling flop is not bad. Hate preflop.

[fattyfattness]

check river... your hand just isnt that good on this board

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fairly significantly -EV at best I know.

[/ QUOTE ]
But whatever.

Flop is okay, but I would probably fold it, a decent amount, as well. Once SB calls, you have to worry about the flush, as well as being outkicked.

Turn is fine.

You have to bet the river. There are several hands that could pay you off (Kx from BT, Qx from SB). I wouldn't be worried at all about the flush, and the straight is barely a concern.

Paying off a raise is fairly marginal, though.

[mayday4379]

I fold the flop. Once SB calls, someone has to have the diamond draw out there and there is the chance of being outkicked or an overpair. If SB folded, I would call the flop and lead the turn.

I have a hard time believing that SB checked a flush 2x and button would probably have fired a bet on the turn if he hit his flush or set vs two opponents. I agree and lead the river for $200, but i'm not sure what calls us. AQ, KT or AK maybe, but I expect any other 2 pair to call and a flush to raise us.

I fold to any raise.

[jlocdog]

When you find yourself in a spot where you feel you might have the best of it but obviously can't call any raise, is that what is defined as a "thin value bet"? The idea of getting payed off enough of the time where it outways the times you are forced to fold?

Does this situation differ from a "showdown" hand in respect to having a possibility of winning the hand with no risk of getting pushed off it (besides for the few times that an opponent bets an obscene amount to make you fold).

Lastly, are these the type of bets that seperate great players from......players?

[DJ Sensei]

ugh, this hand looks pretty sloppy.

i won't ignore preflop, because its terrible.

flop is bad, overcalling there with the worst possible top pair (effectively)? ugh. most of the time you're already behind, but if not then you'll generally get caught up on by one or the other of them, and you have no way to safely protect your hand.

turn: well, alright. nothing wrong here.

river: meh. you should value bet given the checkthrough, but definitely dont pay off a raise.