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  #1  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:30 PM
dlpnyc21 dlpnyc21 is offline
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Default Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

Villain in the hand is a known live cash game pro (in the ac/foxwoods, and nyc games at least). He makes very good laydowns and puts a lot of pressure on people but sometimes he makes reckless plays that seem like value bluffs. I played one hand with him recently where I raised preflop to 600 with JJ from ep, got 5 callers, including villain on btn. I check-call his 2500 bet on a 1095hh board, and check call his ai on a 6 non-heart turn 10kish and K10o is no good. He certainly is capable of big bluffs. He probably views me as a solid player. It should be noted that we are playing 72o for 500 and I have seen him win once when he reraised preflop to 2500 and took it down with 72o. I had a read on him that he was 72ing and actually told the player next to me that he had 72 after he reraised and we made a 100 bet, which I won (still lost 400 though).

Blinds 25/50, I am sitting on 16k, I make it 300 to go with 88 from EP, get one caller, and he makes it 1600 from the blinds very quickly. I decide to call. I am calling in part because I have position, in part because I think I might have the best hand, and in part because I don't want him to constantly reraise me preflop.

Flop comes K45ss. I have the 8s. He bets 3k and I call. I am basically just hoping to show the hand down at this point. Turn comes 7, non spade, giving me a gutter. He asks me how much I have left, I tell him approx 11k. He very quickly bets out 10k in two stacks of 1k chips. Call/shove all in? I very much doubt he would make this bet with 99-QQ, meaning his range is more polarized towards AK/spades/bluff type hands. His mannerisms and tempo to me suggested someone trying to push me off the pot.

Is calling absolutely horrendous here?
dlpnyc21
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:38 PM
AcidKnight AcidKnight is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.
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  #3  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:40 PM
dlpnyc21 dlpnyc21 is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]


k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:48 PM
AcidKnight AcidKnight is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

[ QUOTE ]

k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it ultimately makes a lot of difference. This is easily a scared K not liking other options (b/f, c/f, c/c) and just blindly shoving.
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  #5  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:49 PM
Kirkrrr Kirkrrr is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]


k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't think you can b/c he could've had one of those hands pre-flop and when you just call the the flop realized that you can't be that strong and he can get you to lay down your K even if you have one. In my experience, given your guys' dynamic and all, I stare at AA/KK here like every [censored] time when I make the call, so I'd let it go.

Kirk

PS. What I'm trying to say is that besides the obvious hands you can't beat, he's also good enough to turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, and he would be bluffing with the best hand here.
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:54 PM
ike ike is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

Calling the turn is probably not as bad as calling preflop or on the flop but I think this is a fold at every decision point. Playing guessing games for 300BB with 88 is not the way to beat overaggressive but smart players.

Edit: Obviously if you have a specific physical read or read on the situation/tempo/metagame/whatever that makes this situation different from a general situation against a generic very aggressive winner, do whatever your read calls for. But insofar as this situation can be discussed, calling down with 88 is a bad plan.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2007, 07:05 PM
dlpnyc21 dlpnyc21 is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold.

In the first hand, you said that he makes reckless plays that could be value bluffs, so shoving a hand like 99-QQ would seem to fall into this caregory here and fall into line with how he played the KT in the first hand.

Couldn't he have those mannerisms about pushing you off the hand if he something weak like K9o or any hand that he felt might be ahead but didn't want to get drawn out on?

Calling here is probably a waste of money.

[/ QUOTE ]


k9o would be way more likely than 99-qq here, only because I could easily have a king or a draw (I know this is sick logic, but I actually think it's true). I feel I can safely rule out 99-qq fwiw...

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't think you can b/c he could've had one of those hands pre-flop and when you just call the the flop realized that you can't be that strong and he can get you to lay down your K even if you have one. In my experience, given your guys' dynamic and all, I stare at AA/KK here like every [censored] time when I make the call, so I'd let it go.

Kirk

PS. What I'm trying to say is that besides the obvious hands you can't beat, he's also good enough to turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, and he would be bluffing with the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH??? there is no way in hell i am folding a K here and villain knows this--doesn't this further polarize his range?
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2007, 07:14 PM
Kirkrrr Kirkrrr is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

Wow seriously? You stack off with any K in this spot? lol that's nuts. But if he knows that it just makes it a super easy fold, no?

Kirk
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2007, 07:44 PM
Chaoslord Chaoslord is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

i think calling is ok against the villian u describe, but by raising to 6xBB preflop u put urself in an ugly spot. i prefer either limping or making it 3xBB, this makes the hand much easier to play
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2007, 08:04 PM
dlpnyc21 dlpnyc21 is offline
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Default Re: Calldown in a reraised pot, 25/50 live v. a capable bluffer

[ QUOTE ]
Wow seriously? You stack off with any K in this spot? lol that's nuts. But if he knows that it just makes it a super easy fold, no?

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]


my preflop range for calling with Kx is probably x>/=J, so yes, I stack off with any king here. But I can call the flop with a MUCH wider range than Kx, ie, any middle pair, any FD, so villain can conceivably bluff me off those hands. I can guarantee if he thought I had a king he would never try to bluff me off it.
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