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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:14 PM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

[ QUOTE ]
For sure, against very loose players willing to call your 3-bet wide, then you'd only want to 3-bet for value. Not having some chance of winning immediately obviously makes the 3-bet much less desirable.

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What I'm saying though is that this type of player seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

In my experience, the average opponent doesn't raise a huge range (generally quite a bit less than you really should), limps a LOT, calls almost every raise OOP, even with trash like 72 or 63, and calls most 3-bets. This type of player seems to be *extremely* common, at least in the games I'm playing. I gave up on turbos a while back, so I only play regulars on FT, if that makes a difference. (and there's a very good chance that it does make a huge difference)

Maybe I'm just seeing a lot more of these lately because I had to step back down to $30s, though. (I had to cash out to cover losing a bunch of money in Vegas, so that my wife will continue to be at least somewhat accepting of my obsessive poker playing) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:59 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

That makes me uncomfortable that you are losing money out of the BB, but I will take the sample size argument into consideration. There are players who actually earn more money out of the BB than the SB.

The turbos vs regular games is a strong consideration here. The turbo players tend to raise every hand, but still play too tight, thus negating any advantage that I feel I have by 3-betting lightly.

I play 70/70, what would you do versus me?

If you 3-bet me too often, you are going to face a few tough decisions. HUSNGs seems to feature only one or two hands that really matter. I am willing to take risks with a deep stack. If you 3-bet me with AT and the board comes down 258, what are you going to do when I call you?

What are you going to when the average opponent calls you. At this point you are playing a bloated pot OOP, not knowing why I am calling.

This is for one of three reasons:
I think you are FOS and I hit that 2.
I am on a draw and sense weakness and will float you or expect to get a free card.
I am calling with complete trash to see if I can't steal this pot on the turn.

The decisions are all on you. If you are able to manipulate your opponent into playing poorly, and love to make hero calls, then three-betting too often has advantages.

A feature of No Limit is just that: you can get your chips in the middle at any time you please.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:58 PM
Collin Moshman Collin Moshman is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

xSCWx, I think there are really two different types of LAG style. There's the maniac LAG and the decent LAG who can let go of a hand. Against the maniac LAG, 3-betting will generally just bloat the pot OOP so you're right. The thinking LAG can certainly fold however, so he's the one I'd be a lot more inclined to reraise pf.

TNixon you're absolutely right -- there's no point in 3-betting a calling station unless you're doing it for value.

daveT, what are your position stats? I can't imagine having a higher chip profit from the BB than the button in even a marginally deep situation. What is your strategy to achieve this? In the hand you give, I'd check/shove the flop with an ace-high and two overs, and if you checked behind I'd c-bet the turn. With a weaker hand where I only had one over, I'd c-bet the flop and give it you if you stayed in and I didn't improve. Against a 70/70, I'd probably -- very roughly -- fold 75%, 3-bet 20%, call 5%.

3-betting certainly isn't a cure-all, but there are no great options playing OOP. Folding a lot of hands is fine IMO, but those you do play should often be 3-bet rather than called IF there's a realistic chance your opponent will concede pre-flop.
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:26 AM
ChicagoRy ChicagoRy is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

I know at one point I had a higher winrate from BB than SB, but I'm convinced it was just variance.

I'm winning about 4x as big from SB as BB now. Roughly 50k sample from my last 1k or so games.
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:27 AM
Saitoh Saitoh is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

3 betting light is a good strat against 2+2 HUSNGers
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2007, 05:37 AM
creedofhubris creedofhubris is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

[ QUOTE ]

I think the problem with this is that most players who are raising a wide range will also call you with a wide range, and the ones who are tight are going to have strong hands that you REALLY don't want to play against in a huge pot OOP.


[/ QUOTE ]

vs. the tight raisers, in a cash game, the strategy is simple: fold almost every hand when they raise, and then steal mercilessly from the SB.
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:55 PM
xSCWx xSCWx is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

Is this only for 10/20 blinds?

Say we are playing in 15/30 blinds:

Villain raises to 90
Hero reraises to 270 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain calls

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain checks
Hero cbets 400
Villain shoves

If we call we are probably significantly behind. If we fold we are dumping close to half our chips.

Am I missing something?
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:09 PM
Landonfan Landonfan is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

[ QUOTE ]
3 betting light is a good strat against 2+2 HUSNGers

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what I've been thinking every time I've come in this thread. 3betting often is good against solid, raise or fold type players. It's usually spew against pretty much everyone else.
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:16 PM
HungryPeon HungryPeon is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

In HUSNG we playing most of opponents for first or second time and 80% of them are donks. So i think pot control here is more important than attempts to outplay our opponent or pushing him out OOP in big pot.


(sorry for bad English)
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:57 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: Calling Pre-flop? Strongly Consider 3-Betting Instead (NLTRN The

I remember having a discussion with hra about this, since he was over-all doing better out of the BB than SB. My SB/BB is 1/4 as well, although I think this ratio is incorrect, as I am showing losses with even AK out of the BB right now. Variance.
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