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  #51  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:32 PM
Phil153 Phil153 is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

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If the question of African IQ is a matter of empirical science, exactly what piece of evidence are we waiting for? What would finally convince the racialists that they are wrong?

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Good question. You'd need a very powerful theory to explain the direct and indirect evidence that's been outlined in other threads.

Evidence that would be interesting:

- Black adoptees into the US consistently scoring at white levels by the second generation
- The wealthiest black kids with college educated black parents outdoing the poorest Asian kids with uneducated parents (hint: they don't, which is shocking and instantly debunks a lot of proposed mechanisms for the gap).
- Any black country doing as well as white
- Any poor East Asian country scoring on par with black.
- Poor, malnourished rural Asian groups scoring on par with poor, malnourished blacks in their home countries (hint: they don't. The poorest East Asians even outdo whites)

I mean come on, there's a crapload of things which could throw a spanner in the works of the gene theory and add a heap of credibility to the pure environment theory. The thing is, none of these things exist. This is huge.
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  #52  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:34 PM
DLKeeper1 DLKeeper1 is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

This is obviously a highly polarizing subject, but get your heads out of the sand...Ashkenazi Jews have been persecuted throughout history way more than current US Blacks. Sixty years ago the Ashkenazi Jews were pretty much robbed of everything, and had to start over again as poor immigrants. They've done ok since then.

Ashkenazi Jews FTW:

.2% of world population
25% of science Nobel Prize winners
27% of Ivy League students
16% of Time's Most Important 25 People


...and Albert Einstein
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  #53  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:59 PM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
If the question of African IQ is a matter of empirical science, exactly what piece of evidence are we waiting for? What would finally convince the racialists that they are wrong? Nothing, it seems to me, except the arrival of the day when the IQ gap disappears, and that is going to take a while. The history of Africans in the modern West is roughly as follows: Millennia of minding their own business in Africa, followed by 200 years of enslavement by a foreign civilization, followed by 100 years of Jim Crow oppression, followed by fifty years of very incomplete equality and freedom. And now the scientific establishment, apparently even the progressive scientific establishment, is impatient enough with Africansí social development that it seems reasonable to ask whether the problem is in the descendants of our former slavesí genes. If that isnít offensive I donít know what is.

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Whatever ones opinion may be on innate intelligence or racial contributions to it, this comment is an embarrassment to our species, I hope he is a martian.

luckyme
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  #54  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:55 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

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2. I have previously posted SAT breakdowns offset against a number of socioeconomic characteristics for the four main racial groups. They alone debunk a lot of the author's claims.

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Of course, because we all know the only non-genetic difference between the four main racial groups is income and parental education level (amount of education not quality) . . .

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3. Many of the author's excuses for poor African results work EXACTLY IN REVERSE when applied to the Asian-White differential, including both Asian homelands and immigrants. Either blacks are being massively held back by their circumstances to the tune of 30 IQ points, or Asians are massively smarter than Whites. You choose. I mentioned this above but no one has commented on this elephant in the room.

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I don't know the author's entire position, but you are misrepresenting things. He was talking about blacks in the Western world, not Sub Saharan Africans. The IQ difference is only 15 points in the U.S.

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4. Indirect evidence is overwhelming, and needs to be adequately explained by any environment-only theory.

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I still don't see how you can claim this. Every time an environmental factor is controlled for, the gap diminishes by some amount. Why would you assume that we can control for every factor and that we know everything that goes into intelligence? For example, how do you control for societal expectations?

[ QUOTE ]

5. It's the enviro people irrationally claiming that

- Intelligence doesn't inately differ between races, or, if it does
- Environment >>>>>> Genes. I don't know exactly how Taraz is quantifying his >>>>>>, but it looks a like a lot. Perhaps he gives a few percent to genes. Thing is, this statement is a lot more contrary to the evidence than the one that genes may play a significant part.

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The reason I am claiming that environment is more important than genes is because I can name off at least 20 factors that wildly affect IQ score that have nothing to do with genetics. If you take people with the exact same genes, you can vary their IQ score by an insane amount simply by raising them in different environments. If I could choose the best possible genes or the best possible environment, it's no contest.

I have never once claimed that genes play no role in intelligence. What I have claimed is that the evidence for a genetic difference in intelligence between races is not conclusive at all and is, IMO, pretty weak.
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  #55  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:06 AM
West West is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
To quote from Eric Turkheimer :If the question of African IQ is a matter of empirical science, exactly what piece of evidence are we waiting for? What would finally convince the racialists that they are wrong? Nothing, it seems to me, except the arrival of the day when the IQ gap disappears, and that is going to take a while. The history of Africans in the modern West is roughly as follows: Millennia of minding their own business in Africa, followed by 200 years of enslavement by a foreign civilization, followed by 100 years of Jim Crow oppression, followed by fifty years of very incomplete equality and freedom. And now the scientific establishment, apparently even the progressive scientific establishment, is impatient enough with Africansí social development that it seems reasonable to ask whether the problem is in the descendants of our former slavesí genes. If that isnít offensive I donít know what is.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Africa scores far worse than US blacks. Western "oppression" has nothing to do with anything.

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Someone as smart as you ought to be able to figure out possible reasons why African IQ scores might be lower than those of African-Americans, even if the scores of African-Americans have been negatively affected by "environmental" factors specific to the U.S.

Would you mind posting a link to your information on African IQ scores?

[ QUOTE ]
2. I have previously posted SAT breakdowns offset against a number of socioeconomic characteristics for the four main racial groups. They alone debunk a lot of the author's claims.


[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect Taraz's reply covered this, but would you care to post this information again?

[ QUOTE ]
3. Many of the author's excuses for poor African results work EXACTLY IN REVERSE when applied to the Asian-White differential, including both Asian homelands and immigrants. Either blacks are being massively held back by their circumstances to the tune of 30 IQ points, or Asians are massively smarter than Whites. You choose. I mentioned this above but no one has commented on this elephant in the room.


[/ QUOTE ]

The author you are referring to makes no such "excuses" for "poor African results" which makes me wonder if you bothered to read the article at all. Again, would you care to post sources for these statements you are making?

[ QUOTE ]
4. Indirect evidence is overwhelming, and needs to be adequately explained by any environment-only theory.

5. It's the enviro people irrationally claiming that

- Intelligence doesn't inately differ between races, or, if it does
- Environment >>>>>> Genes. I don't know exactly how Taraz is quantifying his >>>>>>, but it looks a like a lot. Perhaps he gives a few percent to genes. Thing is, this statement is a lot more contrary to the evidence than the one that genes may play a significant part.

[/ QUOTE ]

What 'evidence' are you referring to?
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  #56  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:35 AM
West West is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
This is obviously a highly polarizing subject, but get your heads out of the sand...Ashkenazi Jews have been persecuted throughout history way more than current US Blacks. Sixty years ago the Ashkenazi Jews were pretty much robbed of everything, and had to start over again as poor immigrants. They've done ok since then.

Ashkenazi Jews FTW:

.2% of world population
25% of science Nobel Prize winners
27% of Ivy League students
16% of Time's Most Important 25 People


...and Albert Einstein

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently Einstein once said, "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

You are making quite a few assumptions in your comparison of Ashkenazi Jews to Black Americans.
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  #57  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:06 AM
West West is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One man's response to Saletan: No, Blacks are not Dumber than Whites

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is this about Whites and Blacks? Why aren't these intellectual luminaries debunking the notion that Whites are dumber than Asians???

Perhaps it's because just about every one of their retarded scapegoats (culture/repression/minority status/socioeconomic status/educational attainment/nutrition) proves exactly the opposite when you look at the White/Asian differential?

[/ QUOTE ]

One guy debunks

Also: How Whites Use Asians to Further Anti-Black Racism
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  #58  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:45 AM
WhiteKnight WhiteKnight is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

Somewhat grunching, InTheDark and Phil153 win the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
This subject might be relevant if there was a significant difference between an IQ of 95 and 115.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe Sklansky actually said this, for obvious reasons stated by others.
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  #59  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:57 AM
DLKeeper1 DLKeeper1 is offline
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Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is obviously a highly polarizing subject, but get your heads out of the sand...Ashkenazi Jews have been persecuted throughout history way more than current US Blacks. Sixty years ago the Ashkenazi Jews were pretty much robbed of everything, and had to start over again as poor immigrants. They've done ok since then.

Ashkenazi Jews FTW:

.2% of world population
25% of science Nobel Prize winners
27% of Ivy League students
16% of Time's Most Important 25 People


...and Albert Einstein

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently Einstein once said, "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

You are making quite a few assumptions in your comparison of Ashkenazi Jews to Black Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thnk that's a great quote and very applicable to this conversation. However, I think my argument still holds true. Of course, "race facts" do not define individuals, nor should they ever. What assumptions am I making?
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  #60  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:01 AM
WhiteKnight WhiteKnight is offline
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Location: omotive
Posts: 316
Default Re: Slate.com on race and IQ

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, "race" facts do not define individuals, nor should they ever. What assumptions am I making?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are assuming nurture over nature to the tune of 100%.

Is it really so hard to believe the obvious intellectual discrepancies between races, in light of the fact that professional sports are dominated by Blacks (i.e. racial differences clearly exist)?

[X] Racist ban imo.
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