Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?

[fishyak]

Further, a table can bring a maniac to his knees in a hurry if they:

1) fold PF everything except premium hands, and
2) mercilessly raise super-premiums.

Maniac wins no big pots, no cheap pots and is essentially playing 1 on 8 poker. He can't last. Table does not need to be overt about it. But if they play as a tight unit against the maniac he is quickly toast.

[fishyak]

If you do want to loosen it up a bit, use position. Loosen up ONLY from HJ or later. If facing a true maniac, be patient and tighten up. Then RAISE when you have the goods.

[Frond]

Yes, they can be very short term winners. Their style is a pendulum though. They can lose chips just as fast as they accumulate them. Example: I played 4/8 live today and a girl to my left played just about every single hand for 3 hours straight and occcasionally hit some really nice pots. She also bet out at a lot of flops. She started with a rack($100) and built it up to $450, left with like $150 total. So although she did win a little, think how she could have done if she played just a bit smarter post flop.

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
nope. eventually they bleed dry. they may run hot for a bit and look good, but a hot streak can make alot of crappy players think they're good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I resemble that remark.

[roggles]

I obviously understand that they can win in the short term, any strategy can. But I'm wondering if there are long time winners playing loose

[Dhani]

Just for giggles..
Would you expand on how you would loosen up a bit (alla SSHE) in these situations (playing with Maniac, being a maniac).

[One Outer]

There are a *handful* of long term winners that are very intelligent LAGs. But they aren't that far out of line. The looseness you're describing, no.

[TheCount212]

Well, there is a big difference between loosening up generally at a typical table and playing at a table with a maniac. I think the best strategy against a maniac is to tighten up PF and make them pay. To use a boxing analogy, if the table is typical you want to jab more often (play more hands) and if the table has a maniac or two you want to play the rope-a-dope for a while and go for the knockout when an opening presents itself.

[TheCount212]

This is exactly right. I have been at tables where the maniac manages to hypnotize two or three loose passives/callingstations into going berzerk..and then shortly thereafter the maniac has those players going to the ATM.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I obviously understand that they can win in the short term, any strategy can. But I'm wondering if there are long time winners playing loose

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on how you define "loose". As stated repeatedly above, the player you described will not be a long term winner using that style of play exclusively. However, if he changes up & all of a sudden adopts a rock-like style of play the next time you sit at a table against him, he's probably going to make a good amount of money off of you before you recognize the change & adapt your play correspondingly.

The best LHE players in the world play quite a bit looser than you or I normally would, at least on average. They can do this because they are much, much better than we are at postflop play, and they must do this because their opponents are nowhere near as bad as our typical opponents are. Put another way, you will not be a long-term winner in high stakes games playing a simple, ABC style of TAG poker; you have to loosen up and vary your play enough that your opponents won't be able to put you on a narrow range of hands & play perfect poker against you.

Varying your play is the key. I've seen Phil Ivey make many of the same plays you describe your maniac making in high stakes LHE games online (in fairness, these are very short-handed games). However, a player like Ivey is both skilled and competent enough to change up his playing style when he recognizes that his opponents are adjusting to it. So in one hand he might be capping (with position) holding 74 offsuit, but the next time he does that he very well may have the goods (or he may not; that's the central point).

Doing anything on a constant basis will lay the foundations for a losing LHE player, at least once you get up to fair-sized stakes and/or against decent opponents. Really, the only steadfast rule that there is in LHE is to always raise when closing the action on the river & holding the nuts--other than that, there will always be exceptions to any "standard" play.

All that said, don't try to play like that maniac (or like Ivey) just yet. As you gain experience, and after much trial and error, you'll start to recognize the cases where you should make a seemingly bizarre play or three. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]