Teach me to play craps - Page 4

PhilHelmet · #31 08-22-2007, 12:09 PM

I'm not talking about the very modest difference in house edge: Pass vs. Don't pass, 1.414% house edge vs. 1.402% house edge.

What I was referring to is a history of playing craps for 22 years. Roughly the first 11 years on Pass, and the last 11 years on Don't pass. My experience is, you will make more money ("in the long run", e.g. many years) with Don't pass.

Yes, yes I know, mathematically pass/don't pass (with odds) is a coin flip. So, why do 98% of the players always bet on Heads? (i.e. the Pass line)

If you want to be part of the crowd, by all means play Pass Line.

If you are going to play craps for just one weekend of your life, it really doesn't matter what you do, pass vs. don't pass. Just stay away from all the props and one-roll bets.

uclaben · #32 08-22-2007, 01:42 PM

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If you want to be part of the crowd, by all means play Pass Line.

If you are going to play craps for just one weekend of your life, it really doesn't matter what you do, pass vs. don't pass. Just stay away from all the props and one-roll bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does make a difference - unless you're a twisted SOB, it's more fun to win with everyone else than profit on the crowd's losses. Given that the house edge is almost exactly the same, I really don't see why a fledgling craps player would want to play Don't Pass.

mhcmarty · #33 08-22-2007, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to be part of the crowd, by all means play Pass Line.

If you are going to play craps for just one weekend of your life, it really doesn't matter what you do, pass vs. don't pass. Just stay away from all the props and one-roll bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does make a difference - unless you're a twisted SOB, it's more fun to win with everyone else than profit on the crowd's losses. Given that the house edge is almost exactly the same, I really don't see why a fledgling craps player would want to play Don't Pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, I've come to hate playing Blackjack since I started playing craps. Much more social as the table generally wins together.

PhilHelmet · #34 08-22-2007, 04:14 PM

"than profit on the crowd's losses"
LOL.. This is the most understood aspect of craps.
Whenever you bet "Don't pass" everybody thinks you are "betting with the house". So not true.

Craps is just like a football game (e.g. Chargers vs. Raiders), with two possible outcomes. The casino books BOTH sides of the action (you can bet either the Chargers OR the Raiders, the point spread gets adjusted so there is even money on both sides of the wager.) In craps, you can bet Pass, or Don't Pass. In craps you can take odds (pass) or lay odds (Don't pass). The casino is just the book. You never are playing craps against the casino.

However, people predominantly bet Pass Line... why, next point..

"it's more fun to win with everyone" I can't argue this point, it's just a matter of what you are trying to get out of the game. If it’s companionship you want, fine. Bet PASS. Go for it.

I guess if I told you that 95% of the people in the room were betting on the Chargers, you would pick them, just to fit in.

mhcmarty · #35 08-22-2007, 05:24 PM

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The casino is just the book. You never are playing craps against the casino.

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This is very wrong. In a casino you are very much playing against the "house" regardless of which side you are playing. For your arguement to be true there would have to be even money on the pass and don't. The odds don't fluctuate based on where the money is.

Where would the casinos vig come from in your scenario???

1 reason to play the pass with odds is that it takes a hole lot less $$$ to take the odss -vs- laying odds.

AquaSwing · #36 08-22-2007, 05:38 PM

One thing I've always liked about the don't side is you never get that horrible seven-out feeling. Many times I've had $200-300 on the table in the form of pass/come/odds/place bets and that seven comes and there's the giant letdown of watching a huge stack get sucked into the box.

With the don't side you get slowly picked off as the numbers hit, but no massive letdown. Also, I enjoy when numbers get established on the don't side because at that point the odds are in your favor. You've already passed the seven/eleven issue.

asterion · #37 08-22-2007, 05:46 PM

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I guess if I told you that 95% of the people in the room were betting on the Chargers, you would pick them, just to fit in.

[/ QUOTE ]No action from me. The Raiders suck. Plus, I'm a Broncos fan--I'm already wishing both could manage to lose.

SheetWise · #38 08-22-2007, 10:42 PM

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PhilHelmet -
Yes, yes I know, mathematically pass/don't pass (with odds) is a coin flip. So, why do 98% of the players always bet on Heads? (i.e. the Pass line)

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Consider the "Pass" line, printed in red ink, surrounding the table -- in front of every player -- combined with the "Come", again printed in red -- within reach of all players.

Compare that with the "Don't Pass / Don't Come", printed in black on green -- on a small patch in the corner of the table, within reach on 1 or 2 players at most. You have to call the bet, and/or ask to have it placed. The house wouldn't try to influence you --would they?

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uclaben-
Given that the house edge is almost exactly the same, I really don't see why a fledgling craps player would want to play Don't Pass.

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The variance is very different. The house wants variance for the players. It produces a lot of losers, and some very big winners. And among the losers, many have experienced a significant win at some point prior to their loss. That's what the players remember -- and that's what great gaming is all about (from the house perspective).

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mhcmarty -
This is very wrong. In a casino you are very much playing against the "house" regardless of which side you are playing. For your arguement to be true there would have to be even money on the pass and don't. The odds don't fluctuate based on where the money is.

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The odds don't fluctuate -- which is why the house will glady book either side. They're don't need to 'lay off' any imbalance, because as you say -- the odds don't change. When the guy you're betting against doesn't care who wins -- he's a bookie.

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AquaSwing -
With the don't side you get slowly picked off as the numbers hit, but no massive letdown. Also, I enjoy when numbers get established on the don't side because at that point the odds are in your favor. You've already passed the seven/eleven issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether you slowly get picked off, or slowly win -- there's a lot less variance on the don't side. Which is why the layout is designed as it is.

bluesbassman · #39 08-23-2007, 03:07 PM

It should also be mentioned that there is a trade-off between minimizing your risk of ruin over a certain time period (or number of rolls) and maximizing the probability you will, say, double your roll.

If you want to maximize the probability you will (approximately) double your money, you should place your entire roll for the session on one pass line bet + full odds (or come, or don't pass, etc). Of course if you lose that bet, you are busto.

If you want to maximize the probability you will play for a couple of hours without going busto, you should make minimum bets on the pass line (or don't pass). However, this betting strategy makes it much less likely you will double your money compared to placing your entire roll on a single bet.

SheetWise · #40 08-23-2007, 07:44 PM

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If you want to maximize the probability you will (approximately) double your money, you should place your entire roll for the session on one pass line bet + full odds (or come, or don't pass, etc). Of course if you lose that bet, you are busto.

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This never made any sense to me -- placing a case bet in a craps game. First off -- you might as well ignore odds, otherwise you have to place only a portion of your BR on the line. What portion? If you're betting only a portion of your roll -- it's not a case bet.

Here's how I see front line craps. On the come out roll -- there's a 1 out of 3 chance there will be a decision. If there is a decision -- there's a 2:1 chance I win. If there's no decision -- I'm at a disadvantage. Does that sound like a good place to put a case bet?

On the back line there's the same 1 out of 3 chance for a decision that's 2:1 against me -- but if there's no decision I get the advantage.

In either case -- the craps table is a lousy place for a case bet. If you're on the front -- you're might have to watch a 45 minute million dollar hand waiting for your 4 to repeat (or not). If you're on the back -- you're going to watch the shooter load the 5 points you don't own before he sevens or knocks you off the one point you own.

Save yourself the agony -- case bets belong on baccarat.