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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:37 PM
gregorio gregorio is offline
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Default NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

I find it really hard to put someone on a range when they call my 3bet PF. People are showing up with all sorts of hands. I used to assume people were calling with something like TT+, AQs+, but now I don't know. Today I had someone call my 3bet with A4o, and another person called my 4bet (after they min 3-bet) with A7o.

So what range are you giving people who call your 3bets PF without setodds, both when they are IP and OOP? It seems just as wide as what people limp/call with PF. It's like the limp/call range is small-mid PP, small-mid SCs, weak Ax, and then 25% random crap; and the bet/call range is TT+, strong Ax, and then lots of other Ax, suited broadways and other random crap. I really want their range to at least polarize when they call the cbet into sets, TPTK, overpairs and big draws, but it seems like they call with any piece of the flop.

Typical hand:
Preflop: Hero in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Button raises 4BB, Hero in SB raises to 14BB, Button calls

Flop: (28BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets 18BB, Button calls

So now I think, [censored], they must have a QQQ or TTT, or maybe AQ. They can't be calling my 3bet pf with AT?!?!?!? I don't think many people float in 3bet pots at NL50, so I am ready to give up. But it seems this range is wayyyyyyyy to narrow.

Turn: (64BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button bets 10BB, Hero is like WTF and calls

River: (84 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button bets 10BB, Hero is like WTF and calls

Villain shows A5

How can I put them on A5? Nice suckout by me, but how can I fold the turn to a 1/6psb?
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:50 PM
gregorio gregorio is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

Perhaps this is a better example of my confusion

Preflop: Hero in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button raises 4BB, Hero in SB raises to 14BB, Button calls

Flop: (28BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets 18BB, Button calls

How can I be ahead here after they call. They must have 99, JJ+ or AJ to call here. But often they don't. What is their range. Is it just 99+, AJ and 25% WTF?
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:25 PM
dlorc dlorc is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

Range is frequently retarded I've threebet to get called by 97o, 78o, etc etc.

At these levels vs non-mctagfish and even some tagfish the range is pretty wide.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:26 PM
dlorc dlorc is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

Should also note, that the 35%+ vpipers love to call threebets w/ ace-rag.

Happens alll the time, I've actually stacked quite a few fishcakes by threebetting and valuebetting AK/Q/J and getting shoved at by the donk who called pre w/ A3o and such.
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:54 PM
Lego05 Lego05 is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

Different opponents will have vastly different ranges. For some people it's very close to 100% of what they would raise with and/or what they would call 1 raise with.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:00 PM
peetar69 peetar69 is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

I really hope this thread takes off. I'm strickly LHE player that is going to make the switch. Books tend to put things in tidy little boxes and then the reality of actual play makes for a lot of WTF moments.
One thing I did notice from some study of 3/6LHE, was that position was not being played well by any of us, (comparing stats from Stox's book). I suspect when I play a bit and get some some HH's, I'll find that a number of people justify doing stupid things because "I have the position" or they enter pots very light from early position because there was one fold in front of them, thus, it is an unraised pot.I will spend a bit of time reveiwing positional plays and ranges, and try to make some sence of it.
I am brand new to NL. My 17 BI's at .05/.10 will be avalible for play when I get home from playing 3/6 with very old people at the boat tomorrow.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:09 PM
Worm75 Worm75 is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

Well can't speak for Pokerstars, but in the last couple weeks it seems like calling in post with small connectors(not even Suited C, but ATC that connect) has become the rage at FTP, from both fish and tagfish.[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Really you're probably best off with a standard tag of putting his range at JJ+ AQo+, and sometimes AJs/KQs, at NL50 cause most don't really 3bet light a ton. That being said, PAHUD is your best friend for making it easy to see mucked cards and getting information.

Def pay attention when not involved in the 3bet pot and try and get some notes on what peoples calling/3bet range is
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Chomp Chomp is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

A respected SS poster (can't remember who) recently commented in a SS thread that light/unpredictable 3 and 4 betting/calling/raising has become so prevalent that maybe the best way to play in 3/4b situations (that is, when making them/calling them/raising them) is to play them vanilla white...in other words, at our levels, it may not serve us much better in EV terms to play/assume anything but classic 3/4b lines.

So applying this theory to OP's question here, it would suggest sticking with the presumption that 3b calling ranges from relatively sane opponants are standard until you have a strong read. Sometimes you will be right, sometimes you will be wrong, but it is hard to imagine losing a massive amount of EV if we keep it simple: {AT+, TT+}, or whatever.

Obviously, this theory breaks down against droolers.

Dunno if I have the poster's argument absolutely right, but something along those lines.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:28 PM
dlorc dlorc is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

My comments were not so much what we call with, with what I have seen called with ~20k hands last two months at 50nl.

Also I play 50nl with the standard 25nl blinds ( .10/.25 ) so its a little different.

I suggest threebetting a standard range, threebetting light only vs nits and in a range assumption I have a range in mind for:

30+% vpip : calling with ATC - this cannot be understated, I think its a huge mistake to assume range here.

I have someone who's 27vpip over 1khands + who called a threebet from me ( and a large one ) w/ 78o.

Under 25% its going to be a bit more respectable.

You're going to get called light if its a button raise and you threebet AQ from the sb vs anyone.

I think key is really not making too many assumptions because I gaurantee you'll be surprised by anyone except a total nitbox.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:05 AM
gregorio gregorio is offline
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Default Re: NL50: Putting people on ranges when they call 3bet PF

If people are calling my 3bets light knowing they are doing so, I think it's a great play. Like if someone 22/17 ASB35 opens on the button, I have a wide 3bet range from the blinds (compared to what i would 3bet a 30/5 UTG raise). So I think it can be +EV for someone to float my 3bet in position, knowing that I am more likely (due to hand distribution) to be 3betting AJ or KQ than KK+, and usually can't continue after my cbet gets called.

But I think most of the time it's a case of villain thinking, "Oh look, an A (or two pretty cards). Raise. Oh, he 3bet? Well, I have an A (or two pretty cards). Call."

I know as I move up, I need to 3bet steal raises from the blinds more than I do at NL50, but I guess I need to let a lot of hands go that will play like crap OOP when I get called unless I know villain is good enough to steal light and lay down hands to 3bets.

It's like when those fish to my left always call my CO raises from the button, not because they are planning to float, but because they really like to see a flop. Playing the pot OOP still sucks even if villain is horrible, so I can't open from CO too light, even if I'm dying to open my T8s. I guess I need to not feel the need to 3bet my 3bet>fold>call hands from the blinds vs the fish. It just feels so weak/tight. But I guess weak/tight is okay OOP.
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