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Old 09-23-2007, 12:45 PM
Shabamabam Shabamabam is offline
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Default Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

Just coming back after a few months leave, I find the limit o8 games just sooooo much more aggressive.

3-betting and capping hands such as JQ93 one suit seem to be more of the norm these days. Full ring, it's pretty clear how to exploit this, but I'm finding it much harder to do so when short-handed.

From what I've experienced, these people don't fold often and will raise until they have the option (you checking to them). They don't fold all that much either.

Having said all this, my main question is preflop as it is very hard to bluff these people as often their range is random.



****************
Should we be calling or 3-betting strong high hands against these people.

Is it even right 3-betting pf since you know they're going to bet the flop regardless?

Do bad low hands become that much more valuable?
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2007, 01:45 PM
cero_z cero_z is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

Hi Sham,

If you choose to build the pot prefop, it should be with hands that have an excellent chance of flopping decent. So, an excellent high hand like AKQJds wouldn't be ideal, because you'll often want to c/f the flop, and making the absolute nuts isn't as important vs. players who'll go off with the 5th nuts. Well-coordinated low hands have a lot more value, so most hands with 4 lows in them are good AS LONG AS IT'S VERY SHORTHANDED. If they're capping random [censored], you aren't at much risk to be dominated with 2356. But, if the game is 5-handed, and a reasonable player is coming along too, you have to tighten up. The best hands are Ace-wheel-broadway-something else that works with the rest (another wheel or broadway card, or a pair).

It also works well to keep the pot small preflop. Your hand is concealed, since you only call or fold pre, and post-flop non-folding mistakes are magnified in smaller pots. I'm on the fence, though, as to which method has more value: capping it with hands that are "way ahead" pre, or always keeping the pre-flop pot as small as possible. There is significant equity to be gained preflop when your opponents are playing absolutely everything, so I'm not sure.
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2007, 11:58 PM
1MoreFish4U 1MoreFish4U is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Sham,

If you choose to build the pot prefop, it should be with hands that have an excellent chance of flopping decent. So, an excellent high hand like AKQJds wouldn't be ideal, because you'll often want to c/f the flop, and making the absolute nuts isn't as important vs. players who'll go off with the 5th nuts. Well-coordinated low hands have a lot more value, so most hands with 4 lows in them are good AS LONG AS IT'S VERY SHORTHANDED. If they're capping random [censored], you aren't at much risk to be dominated with 2356. But, if the game is 5-handed, and a reasonable player is coming along too, you have to tighten up. The best hands are Ace-wheel-broadway-something else that works with the rest (another wheel or broadway card, or a pair).

It also works well to keep the pot small preflop. Your hand is concealed, since you only call or fold pre, and post-flop non-folding mistakes are magnified in smaller pots. I'm on the fence, though, as to which method has more value: capping it with hands that are "way ahead" pre, or always keeping the pre-flop pot as small as possible. There is significant equity to be gained preflop when your opponents are playing absolutely everything, so I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a very well thought out reply.
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  #4  
Old 09-24-2007, 01:37 AM
Omaha8sPoker Omaha8sPoker is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

Shamb, just outta curiosity what levels are you talking about?? I'm assuming 15-30 and up becuase I haven't seen this maniacal play at 5-10 and 8-16 SH and the raising "maniac" is usually me (but I'm not doing it with absolute [censored])...

I hate situations like this where I am not leading the action, it tends to frustrate me...I would say the best way to deal with players like this is to check-call thin (I think you are probably a good enough player to do this)...I know it sucks to let somebody be leading the action all the time, but I'd let people like this hang themselves...I'd play my big draws strongly and make them pay when I am ahead of a random ass hand...
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  #5  
Old 09-24-2007, 01:45 AM
BlueBear BlueBear is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

Just call more and let them hang themselves.
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  #6  
Old 09-24-2007, 03:49 PM
TheCount212 TheCount212 is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

If we're the better player after the flop hits I like limping PF with maniacs on board, because (a) they're going to raise you anyway, (b) we disguise our hands more and (c) we're seeing flops cheaper and making them pay when we hit them.
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  #7  
Old 09-25-2007, 06:46 AM
RobNottsUk RobNottsUk is offline
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Default Re: Limit O8. How to defend against sheer aggression?

Yes. It's a very frustrating situation.

I've had this, with raising hands on button, and the SB has constantly taken a view, so would 3 bet to isolate, and the BB knowing the SB is a loose 3-bettor then 4-bets. They both would like to have it HU where their trash is at it's least disadvantage.

If it looks like a good flop for your hand, you get to make the bets and there's no raises.

When it looks like a bad flop for your hand, they go to war to barge you out the pot, one of whom has a strong hand.

As they just call everything anyway on most flops, jamming pre-flop minimises their post-flop errors. Furthermore when they do have a great hand, you're very likely to pay off in a big way.
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