Become better against tough opponents?

[brutalBeater]

I'm wondering the following thing: Let's say the only reason you play poker is to become better and better.
Will your skill improve faster if you play with the toughest opponents you can find and try to beat them, or should I just sit down at a table full of fish?

[stigmata]

Just sit at the softest table you can find.

At the lowest stakes there aren't really any truly "great" players - just tight ones. You need to move up to start finding good players. The quickest way to move up is to table select like crazy and build a good bankroll.

Once you reach the mid-limits the table are a mix of very good to very bad players. Thus you will have exposure to all sorts of players. Again, it's financially wise to sit at the softest tables, and even then you will be tangling often with solid regulars.

[oakley77]

You dont learn as much playing fish. You can beat them by playing a straightforward game. When you play against tougher opponents you have to set up different bluffs and there are less opportunities to stack them.
If you want to improve your skill set, play toughest players you can find around.

[Skleice]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont learn as much playing fish. You can beat them by playing a straightforward game. When you play against tougher opponents you have to set up different bluffs and there are less opportunities to stack them.
If you want to improve your skill set, play toughest players you can find around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm running into this now where I've been finding loose fishy tables and winning. But, I feel like I've been playing soooo much ABC poker, that my game is getting tired.

[disjunction]

FWIW I remember Sklansky making an offhand comment that he couldn't see a reason against this.

I think I disagree, though. It's good to grow up with the other people and learn in small chunks. Otherwise you fall into traps. You may start thinking "High stakes players bluff such and such a board often", and this strategy might even work half-decent, but you never grew up and learned the reason why they bluff this board. Why the rule is applicable sometimes and not others.

I think watching Farha and Elezra on HSP gives you perfect examples of how you can go wrong doing this.

[Stake Monster]

You'll always learn new things at poker, regardless of who you play against. So why play against good players and make less $?

[Micturition Man]

You're getting some bad answers.

If you truly play poker only to get better, and you have an infinite bankroll, then yes you definitely should play against the toughest opponents you can find.

Anyone who has been through this well tell you you learn a lot faster struggling with tough opponents than playing against fish who you can beat with one arm tied behind your back.

However very few people are indifferent to losing $ so it's a moot point.

[holyfield5]

Sorry this is all wrong -

Poker is played by using the information you have gleamed off your opponents to make decisions. Playing tough players and playing "fish" is pretty equal in the skill gaining area. You need to be equally skilled at playing against both because there will be times when its 3 handed and you need to know the reasoning behind their actions BOTH of their actions. You need to know how fish play and how experts play and how the thought processes change in different situations.

Basically you want to see everything, you want to have run into every type of situation against every type of player so you have experience and know capabilities(ranges) of that player type etc. If you are in a hand with a fish and an expert, the situation isnt really any tougher or easier, its just the same standard question, what ranges you can put each player on based on how you know they think and how the hand has played out, what will they give you credit for and how will they react to your actions etc etc.

Skilled players have a different set of ranges you can put them on thats pretty much the only difference. To be "good" at poker means to be a profitable player, the most important factor in that is your ability to table select and extract from the bad players while not giving up too much to the good ones.

In fact i believe playing tougher players will make you get better more slowly, as their moves will be harder to decipher and you might incorrectly peg their thought process without enough experience.

cliff notes - playing tough players wont make you better faster, the poker knowledge is what is important, your variables are different when evaluating what to do against different players skills but the questions are the same.

[silkyslim]

The way to improve your skill is to TALK with the best players around, not to play with them

[brutalBeater]

Thnx for the replies guys! Some interesting thoughts.