How can I explain to ppl that online sites are not rigged?

[rodders133]

Ok, this discussion comes up over and over. A couple of friends think that sites are rigged due to bad beats and unbelievable scenarios etc.
I have many arguments to put to them such as, if sites are rigged how do you get an online pro?, or if there was anything underhand going on surely it would be at the higher stakes not the 10/20c tables we play.
The main argument I would use is, do you honestly think a site would risk its whole business and integrity when they are making $$$$$$ anyway.
I read some controversial reports about something going on at Absolute site which did not help my argument.
The last straw was last night when one friend holding KK pushed on a flop of K 5 2 to be called by AK and AA came on last two cards. That completely convinced him.
He will often say `I dont think its rigged as such, but there is definitely a twist in the software`.
I will reply `even the slightest twist will mean it is 100% rigged, there is no grey area. Its either rigged or it isnt, and it isnt`.

Can some ppl give me a couple more good arguments to put across to these ppl, and what did happen at absolute.

Thanks

[Mase31683]

Your argurment is the most sound one there is. Is a casino going to cheat? Of course not, the edge is in their favor, they do not want any reason for accusation. Neither does an online card room. They make tons of cash raking these tables, and I guarentee you they do their utmost to ensure the integrity of these games.

What happend to your friend is a horrible beat there. But they happen live too.

1) There are people playing very poorly online, and there are tons of them. Live you may have one of these guys maybe two that you encounter throughout a session. Online, the table could be full of them at all 4 tables. This means there's a higher likelyhood that someone will give you a bad beat.

2)You see so many more hands online than in person. When you're playing this many hands, you see that many more bad beats occurring, and when players are staying in with hands they shouldn't, well some % of the time, they're going to win with that awful hand and a bad beat is born.

3)If you're playing far better poker than other players, then most of the hands you lose are going to be beats and suckouts. If you can accept this and understand what this really means, that if you stay at this table you're going to make some good money, they won't bother you so much.

Just last night I had KK all in preflop twice against AA (obv not a beat, but a statistical unlikelyhood), and a third against J5 that caught a rivered straight. But for the session I still pulled in 65BB/100, so don't worry about the beats. Just means there's money being thrown around at your table.

PS, thought it'd be fun to do this. Ran your buddy's hand through pokerstove for a kick.

Your friend will lose that hand about 2% of the time, which sounds miniscule, but one out of 50 does still happen, just not very often.

[Doc T River]

Some people will never be convinced. As long as he is not a politician in Washington, does it really matter?

[GrumpyB]

I recently heard an argument that I thought was pretty good, which is that if you were going to rig the games you'd want to make sure you could hide the evidence.

But there are players out there with huge Hand Histories in their PT databases. It wouldn't be too hard to check whether the hand distributions in these records matched statistical expectations. Remember, Absolute got caught when they accidently released a tournament history file.

OK, some corrupt individuals make look for an edge, but why would the industry allow this? They rake from the good and the bad, the rich and the poor - they want people to play, play, play - then come back and play some more. They win on every hand, so the more hands played the better. Poker sites would rather see the same money going back and forth between equally matched players. They win less when one player takes it all and goes home.

[rodders133]

What actually happened at Absolute? Were they caught cheating. If so how come the site is still up and running?

[ChrisV]

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Your friend will lose that hand about 2% of the time, which sounds miniscule, but one out of 50 does still happen, just not very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask your friend if he realised he lost this often. Obviously A A is a pretty uncommon way to lose, 3 4 or 4 3 is much more common.

Exactly what happened at Absolute is unclear and is the subject of an "independent audit" (read coverup, probably). Basically two guys who were pretty high up in the company used internal tools to view opponents hole cards and cheated customers out of over a million dollars.

The site is still running because why wouldn't they be? Most of their customers simply didn't read about it. There are no legal repercussions because the US's ban on online gambling services pushed the site to Costa Rica, where the rule of law barely functions. Nice work, land of the free!

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
What actually happened at Absolute? Were they caught cheating. If so how come the site is still up and running?

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolute Poker admitted that an insider cheated players out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, mainly in high stakes games, by playing with knowledge of the hole cards. See this wiki, although that concentrates on the smoking gun Potripper tournament rather than the larger cash games which were suspicious long before the tournament. Here is Part 2 of a series of interviews with Nat Arem. Part 1 has some links to past stories on the scandal.

Many players are calling for a boycott of Absolute Poker. I think this is reasonable not because there was cheating, but because

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] There was cheating by an insider or insiders high in Absolute Poker's control structure.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Absolute Poker repeatedly lied about it, and only admitted there was cheating when the smoking-gun evidence was being presented in the mass media (Associated Press, New York Times, USA Today, MSNC, etc.), even though Absolute Poker had the evidence a month earlier.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Absolute Poker has repeatedly lied about minor details, and has not apologized for its past lies, major or minor. This shows a willingness to lie in the future.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Absolute Poker has a bad business reputation. They have had business disputes with affiliates, with marketers, etc., ... Do you trust them to hold your money?
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Absolute Poker appears not to have the types of security systems other sites have. Even if all of the "bad apples" have been fired (which is not clear), Absolute Poker is still years behind other poker sites on security issues. Even if you don't lose to someone who is cheating by seeing the hole cards in Absolute's database, you still run a higher risk of getting cheated in other ways, such as collusion.

While AP appears to have bought off some sites, I think other affiliates should be using this scandal to get those who currently play at Absolute Poker (and Ultimate Bet, which was bought by Absolute Poker) to switch to other sites.

[lucky_mf]

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While AP appears to have bought off some sites, I think other affiliates should be using this scandal to get those who currently play at Absolute Poker (and Ultimate Bet, which was bought by Absolute Poker) to switch to other sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that for a lot of players who want the ability to play a site with good games, a decent amount of traffic, and rakeback AP and UB are the only game in town.

The hold'em games on AP at the levels are play are significantly better than other sites. Combine this with rakeback and a very nice player rewards program and I just can't make myself play hold'em anywhere else.

Lucky

[Bona]

Why would I want to explain to ppl that online sites are not rigged?

FYT

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would I want to explain to ppl that online sites are not rigged?


[/ QUOTE ]
Good poker players will know it is not rigged, but if you only play against good poker players, you won't make nearly as much as if you have casual players dumping in a lot of money. Casual players who do not mind losing much will not play (or will not play as much or for as high stakes) if they feel they are being cheated.

Further, there are many situations in which you may need someone's respect in real life, say a boss, or a landlord, or an inlaw. If they hear that you play online poker and win, and they believe that online poker is dishonest, then they may view you as a cheater, a liar, or a fool.

One thing I point out is that people are very bad at recognizing when they deal with real randomness. People are also very willing to find excuses when they lose. The result is that people complain about every single poker server, as well as every backgammon server, play money bridge, etc. Not only are some of these sites fair, the vast majority if not all of them are fair. That means people complain about fair sites. This doesn't convince everyone, but it makes many people realize they are joining a mob of clueless people, and they need more than a couple of bad beat stories to have a respectable complaint.

Another thing I offer to do, which stops most people from complaining that the server is rigged, is that I offer to bet against whatever pattern they say they have observed. If someone thinks 6-6 is rolled 1/30 of the time instead of 1/36, I offer to pay 32:1. (It's a bit more complicated in poker due to the hidden cards, but I've made similar offers in poker.) That way, if they are right, they win money, and if they are wrong, they will lose money. Well, money talks and BS walks. People who say their patterns are obvious, and claim to be 100% convinced, don't actually believe what they say enough to bet.