Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > General Poker Discussion > Poker Theory

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-06-2007, 01:30 PM
markuisis markuisis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 731
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity agaisnt QQ-88 is why i do it.
also, some ppl will call with AQs, AJs, A10s, KQs if they are tilty/bad. Because you hold 1 A and 1 K your half as likely to run into AA or KK, so your hand is probably at worst a coin flip. If you call a big raise, and dont hit the flop your probably folding to any bet, and if you won't fold then why wouldnt you just push allin PF and get some fold eq.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think pps especially jacks and queens r gonna be folding to 3-bets close to ever. And u contradict urself, u say u have fold equity versus queens and down but if u get it in ur prob a coin flip...
And lastly, I specified that 3-betting these hands versus bad players was fine but versus decent to good ones who pitch all dominated hands - it has some big drawbacks
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:22 AM
JOHNY CA$H JOHNY CA$H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 804
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
"2) If you flop a pair, you can comfortably get all in on the flop. The stack to pot ratio is nice, and the only hand you worry about is a set here- but because or your pre flop bet they dont have the implied odds to draw to a set anyway, let alone draw to a set with an A/K high board."

That's the thing though, when the flop comes a or k high and u 3-bet pf - its very unlikely u'll be getting action from hands u beat unless the guy is a complete fish (worse aces and kings fold out and underpairs arent going to give u action - so u'll either be close to even with a good draw or way behind a two pair or better hand). Also, if ur sum1 who auto c-bets and get auto stacked when flopping tptk or an overpair, then there r def good enough implied odds to take a flop with a pp or sc - especially in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be surprised. You'll find guys who called pre flop with AQ, AJ, KQ, guys with QQ who convince themselves you must have JJ, and guys who flop some kind of draw and can't let it go.

And NO, if you 3 bet large enough they won't have enough implied odds to draw to a set. If they commit 1/8th of their stack pre flop, they're already losing money, even if they get paid off every time they flop a set. Once you factor in that that they must flop a set AND I must flop a pair, it's not even close. You cannot set mine profitably in this spot. If its a standard 4BB raise pre flop and you call, totally different. They can set mine profitably.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:25 AM
JOHNY CA$H JOHNY CA$H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 804
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4) You cannot be outplayed post flop at all at this point. No guessing.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course you can be outplayed postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose if you miss the flop and c-bet, this is true. But if you flop top pr, its all in. No TPTK-atitis. No SPR of 13 and getting pushed off top pr.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-07-2007, 01:42 AM
Gonso Gonso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: seat zero
Posts: 3,265
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity agaisnt QQ-88 is why i do it.
also, some ppl will call with AQs, AJs, A10s, KQs if they are tilty/bad. Because you hold 1 A and 1 K your half as likely to run into AA or KK, so your hand is probably at worst a coin flip. If you call a big raise, and dont hit the flop your probably folding to any bet, and if you won't fold then why wouldnt you just push allin PF and get some fold eq.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a suprisingly good 1st post, except you usually have to c-bet AK
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-07-2007, 02:01 AM
markuisis markuisis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 731
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

You'd be surprised. You'll find guys who called pre flop with AQ, AJ, KQ, guys with QQ who convince themselves you must have JJ, and guys who flop some kind of draw and can't let it go.

And NO, if you 3 bet large enough they won't have enough implied odds to draw to a set. If they commit 1/8th of their stack pre flop, they're already losing money, even if they get paid off every time they flop a set. Once you factor in that that they must flop a set AND I must flop a pair, it's not even close. You cannot set mine profitably in this spot. If its a standard 4BB raise pre flop and you call, totally different. They can set mine profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this post, against bad players as i mentioned, players who will be getting stacked with underpaired queens, or calling with worse kings or shoving fds with no fold equity etc. As for set mining, this is the typical situation: hero raises to 3.5bb (pot)with 88 in BTN, BB 3 bets to 12 - so, u r calling 8.5bb into 17. Now, if we assume he auto c-bets (very likely) - thats now calling 8.5 into about 37.5 (he c-bets 20 into 25.5 minus ur initial 8.5), now if consider the fact that ur ahead on the flop a certain amount even if dont flop a set and the fact that u can stack his overpair or tptk if he has it when u flop a set: then i think its def worth it. I do obviously think that playing them in position makes it much much easier. As an added bonus, by calling more pf in these "marginal" situations, u deter light 3 betting against u and make it more difficult for opponents to narrow ur range once uve called a 3-bet
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:34 PM
jstill jstill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: downtown portsmouth
Posts: 3,641
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

better posters than myself have described this issue previously so I wont try to replicate it... ur a bit off from thinking about preflop optimally so I encourage u to check out the strat forums for NL
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:48 PM
JOHNY CA$H JOHNY CA$H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 804
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
You'd be surprised. You'll find guys who called pre flop with AQ, AJ, KQ, guys with QQ who convince themselves you must have JJ, and guys who flop some kind of draw and can't let it go.

And NO, if you 3 bet large enough they won't have enough implied odds to draw to a set. If they commit 1/8th of their stack pre flop, they're already losing money, even if they get paid off every time they flop a set. Once you factor in that that they must flop a set AND I must flop a pair, it's not even close. You cannot set mine profitably in this spot. If its a standard 4BB raise pre flop and you call, totally different. They can set mine profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this post, against bad players as i mentioned, players who will be getting stacked with underpaired queens, or calling with worse kings or shoving fds with no fold equity etc. As for set mining, this is the typical situation: hero raises to 3.5bb (pot)with 88 in BTN, BB 3 bets to 12 - so, u r calling 8.5bb into 17. Now, if we assume he auto c-bets (very likely) - thats now calling 8.5 into about 37.5 (he c-bets 20 into 25.5 minus ur initial 8.5), now if consider the fact that ur ahead on the flop a certain amount even if dont flop a set and the fact that u can stack his overpair or tptk if he has it when u flop a set: then i think its def worth it. I do obviously think that playing them in position makes it much much easier. As an added bonus, by calling more pf in these "marginal" situations, u deter light 3 betting against u and make it more difficult for opponents to narrow ur range once uve called a 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is, you're assuming the player with 88 knows the other guy has AK. If he's pushing with 88 in this spot, he's getting crushed by larger pairs, and in honestly is spewing. And again, if you bet 1/8th stack pre flop as a 3 bet, 88 does not have enough set equity. So either he plays fit or fold with 88 (tries to hit a set without the odds, -EV), or he assumes the player has AK, winning a cbet when it misses, and gets stacked when opp has a larger pair (also -EV).
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-07-2007, 01:45 PM
markuisis markuisis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 731
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'd be surprised. You'll find guys who called pre flop with AQ, AJ, KQ, guys with QQ who convince themselves you must have JJ, and guys who flop some kind of draw and can't let it go.

And NO, if you 3 bet large enough they won't have enough implied odds to draw to a set. If they commit 1/8th of their stack pre flop, they're already losing money, even if they get paid off every time they flop a set. Once you factor in that that they must flop a set AND I must flop a pair, it's not even close. You cannot set mine profitably in this spot. If its a standard 4BB raise pre flop and you call, totally different. They can set mine profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this post, against bad players as i mentioned, players who will be getting stacked with underpaired queens, or calling with worse kings or shoving fds with no fold equity etc. As for set mining, this is the typical situation: hero raises to 3.5bb (pot)with 88 in BTN, BB 3 bets to 12 - so, u r calling 8.5bb into 17. Now, if we assume he auto c-bets (very likely) - thats now calling 8.5 into about 37.5 (he c-bets 20 into 25.5 minus ur initial 8.5), now if consider the fact that ur ahead on the flop a certain amount even if dont flop a set and the fact that u can stack his overpair or tptk if he has it when u flop a set: then i think its def worth it. I do obviously think that playing them in position makes it much much easier. As an added bonus, by calling more pf in these "marginal" situations, u deter light 3 betting against u and make it more difficult for opponents to narrow ur range once uve called a 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is, you're assuming the player with 88 knows the other guy has AK. If he's pushing with 88 in this spot, he's getting crushed by larger pairs, and in honestly is spewing. And again, if you bet 1/8th stack pre flop as a 3 bet, 88 does not have enough set equity. So either he plays fit or fold with 88 (tries to hit a set without the odds, -EV), or he assumes the player has AK, winning a cbet when it misses, and gets stacked when opp has a larger pair (also -EV).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, i agree with u, thats y i guess i would specify that calling pf 3-bets with pps depends on two things: if u know that villain's 3 betting range is very narrow (a lot of ppl only 3bet big pocket pairs) and u guys both have full stacks, its profitable to call a 3bet both in position and oop IMO. Also, if ur in position against a blind defendor or something (sum1 with a pretty wide 3-betting range), u can call 1 c-bet on decently safe flops without having hit a set and be confident that if he bets the turn ur beat, most ppl will just check down ak or aq high after sum1 calls a c-bet - especially when they (3 bettor) r oop. I balance this by cold calling in position with sets a lot and if ppl want to shove ak high on the turn (not very common) then sure they will make me fold my unconnected pps but they will just run into my sets with a-high and any overpair which makes the implied odds of set mining worth it. So, what i think is correct if folding bad pps (9 and under) to light 3 bettors oop, because ur not gonna stack them enough of the time to justify it and ur gonna be pushed off ur hand too often when u cold call flop and check turn. Ill continue after gtg.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-08-2007, 01:44 AM
drzen drzen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Donkeytown
Posts: 2,704
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
I think I take a very different approach to PF play than most ppl and I wanted to know y there is so much reason for let's say re-raising AK pf. To me, it seems that when ur raising AQ or AK pf, although it's true that ur def ahead of their range and could say ur raising for value, isn't it also true that the hands ur ahead of (kq,kj,k10,gj,g10,a10,aj,a9s) will fold out and if u get called u prob either have the same hand or a hand like a small pp or sc which isn't likely to play a big pot unless ur crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]


"I am upset that people will fold and not draw out on me, and I am upset that people will call and draw out on me."

So are we all, dude. But the times you get called by a small pair and flop an A or K, you have won a bigger pot because you made it bigger preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
So, it seems more reasonable to cold call with hands like aq and win big pots when ppl flop an ace with a jack kicker etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the same players willing to pay you off with TP3K are going to call reraises PF a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still unsure about blind defending since I do think there is a lot of value in getting as much in pf and therefore cutting down the post flop edge of position

[/ QUOTE ]

But you think there's no value at all in getting money in to maximise the postflop edge of position?

[ QUOTE ]
but i think u have to balance the fact that a lot of worse hands will fold out into ur considerations. As for re-raising pp, I see 3-betting small pps as essentially the same as 3-betting SCs (deceptive and hoping to flop big hands) and i c big pocket pairs being fine with raising since u r usually gonna get called by worse pocket pairs all day long

[/ QUOTE ]

But the same guys who won't make a big pot when they have a small pair against AK will suddenly make one when you have AA?

Your argument would make more sense if you said that you are sometimes going to lose your c-bet against small pairs, but you didn't say that. And it's not a strong argument, because on most flops, the other guy will fold his small pair.

[ QUOTE ]
along with the profitable possibiltiy of getting it in pf (whereas I try and avoid getting AK and def AQ in pf).
I wanna make sure i'm not saying u should never 3-bet these hands as that is obviously exploitable, just saying that to me, auto-pot mashing against a raise with AQ seems to have some considerable downsides.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of player dependent.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, against loose fishes, its obviously different since they r calling pf very light. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the last sentence was the one you should focus on. What matters is the range of hands you face and what you think the other player will do.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-08-2007, 02:09 AM
markuisis markuisis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 731
Default Re: PF Raising Logic

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I take a very different approach to PF play than most ppl and I wanted to know y there is so much reason for let's say re-raising AK pf. To me, it seems that when ur raising AQ or AK pf, although it's true that ur def ahead of their range and could say ur raising for value, isn't it also true that the hands ur ahead of (kq,kj,k10,gj,g10,a10,aj,a9s) will fold out and if u get called u prob either have the same hand or a hand like a small pp or sc which isn't likely to play a big pot unless ur crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]


"I am upset that people will fold and not draw out on me, and I am upset that people will call and draw out on me."

So are we all, dude. But the times you get called by a small pair and flop an A or K, you have won a bigger pot because you made it bigger preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
So, it seems more reasonable to cold call with hands like aq and win big pots when ppl flop an ace with a jack kicker etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the same players willing to pay you off with TP3K are going to call reraises PF a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still unsure about blind defending since I do think there is a lot of value in getting as much in pf and therefore cutting down the post flop edge of position

[/ QUOTE ]

But you think there's no value at all in getting money in to maximise the postflop edge of position?

[ QUOTE ]
but i think u have to balance the fact that a lot of worse hands will fold out into ur considerations. As for re-raising pp, I see 3-betting small pps as essentially the same as 3-betting SCs (deceptive and hoping to flop big hands) and i c big pocket pairs being fine with raising since u r usually gonna get called by worse pocket pairs all day long

[/ QUOTE ]

But the same guys who won't make a big pot when they have a small pair against AK will suddenly make one when you have AA?

Your argument would make more sense if you said that you are sometimes going to lose your c-bet against small pairs, but you didn't say that. And it's not a strong argument, because on most flops, the other guy will fold his small pair.

[ QUOTE ]
along with the profitable possibiltiy of getting it in pf (whereas I try and avoid getting AK and def AQ in pf).
I wanna make sure i'm not saying u should never 3-bet these hands as that is obviously exploitable, just saying that to me, auto-pot mashing against a raise with AQ seems to have some considerable downsides.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of player dependent.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, against loose fishes, its obviously different since they r calling pf very light. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the last sentence was the one you should focus on. What matters is the range of hands you face and what you think the other player will do.

[/ QUOTE ]


I sorta agree with a some of what u r saying, but here r my counter arguments:
Point 1)
"I am upset that people will fold and not draw out on me, and I am upset that people will call and draw out on me."

So are we all, dude. But the times you get called by a small pair and flop an A or K, you have won a bigger pot because you made it bigger preflop.

But what about when u don't flop an a, k or q and the opponent peels the flop (especially in position) with his small pp - essentially ur getting in more money as a coin flip. I'm not sure if i understand what ur saying with "I am upset that people will fold and not draw out on me" but what I'M saying is that I wanna get called with dominated hands and have ppl have to draw out on me to win pots (obviously).

Point 2) The reason they would pay u off with tp3k is because they expect tp better kicker to be raising them pf.

Point 3) u DECREASE the effect of position by getting in more pf obviously because u have less maneuverability (less money/bets behind u). Which means there is less "playing" postflop and therefore u r reducing ur edge of position.

Point 4) I want small pps to call my big pair raises not because i think they r gonna pay off the flop but because im an 80% pf favourite whereas with ak/aq im 50/50 (plus i open the possibility of getting it in pf)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.