Trying to sandwich the caller postflop

Baloosh · #1 02-12-2006, 07:32 PM

UTG+1 was a typical calling station. MP1 hadn't done anything good or bad so far, but I have him as a somewhat loose TAG after fewer than 75 hands (27/11/2.0)

After UTG+1 dropped out on the turn, I knew I was losing to only AA from MP1.

Was any of this spewing, with the caller in the middle? Too much checkraising? All comments appreciated.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 caps, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

River: (17.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

MrWookie · #2 02-12-2006, 07:41 PM

I don't think I like the turn check.

Baloosh · #3 02-12-2006, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I like the turn check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elucidate?

MrWookie · #4 02-12-2006, 08:01 PM

What was your thinking behind it? Then I'll tell you if you were right or wrong.

Baloosh · #5 02-12-2006, 11:31 PM

The thinking behind the check on the turn was that if UTG+1 suddenly woke up after calling the whole time, he was bad enough so that I could interpret that as him hitting his straight or junk two pair -- he isn't good enough to try a bluff on that card.

If instead he was still coming along for the ride in 3rd place, I wanted to charge him the maximum for whatever draw he was on. Granted getting 8:1 to call two cold shouldn't cause him to fold anything with as few as 5 outs (any pair) but it was the best way I thought of at the time to protect my hand and still get both villains to put as much as possible in while I probably had the best hand.

How bad did I do?

MrWookie · #6 02-13-2006, 12:16 AM

OK, you're thinking about the first half of the problem, and that's correct. The problem is that you don't know all that well that MP1 will oblige you w/ a bet w/ a hand that you beat. He has TAG stats, and that helps, but I'd kinda like a better read. Giving a free card here could be a disaster.

Onyyn · #7 02-13-2006, 12:37 AM

*grunch*

If we know UTG+1 to be a calling station, I don't see a lot of value in the flop c/r. You're usually trying to push someone out with this setup, but you know he's not going anywhere - I'd rather lead out and be sure of at least two calls rather than risk MP1 slowing down and checking behind, especially with a fairly coordinated board.

Turn: I don't like the c/r here either - after not betting out on the flop and seeing a four-straight on board, I'd think you'd learn more about where you're at betting into them.

River: The bet here is fine I think, you may face a c/r, but it would seem less likely given MP1 closed betting on the last round.

-- I could be wrong, I often am.

bennyhana · #8 02-13-2006, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, you're thinking about the first half of the problem, and that's correct. The problem is that you don't know all that well that MP1 will oblige you w/ a bet w/ a hand that you beat. He has TAG stats, and that helps, but I'd kinda like a better read. Giving a free card here could be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm. I don't think a free card was going to be given on this turn. I think a guy with those stats isn't capping the flop with UI overs like AK-AJ or KQ. Granted he may be betting with a hand that beats us, but there are many more hands he could be betting that we are way ahead of. I'm not saying I'm 100% sold on the check, but worrying about giving a free card?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Baloosh · #9 02-13-2006, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, you're thinking about the first half of the problem, and that's correct. The problem is that you don't know all that well that MP1 will oblige you w/ a bet w/ a hand that you beat. He has TAG stats, and that helps, but I'd kinda like a better read. Giving a free card here could be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the way he jammed preflop combined with the jam of the flop, I really had a hard time believing he was only on 2 overcards (AKs, AQs etc.). He really seemed to be sitting on Jacks or better, with the unlikely TT thrown in based on his semi-loose VPIP... and at these low stakes, I'm not completely convinced that 27% is "too" loose.

I'm not really sure about the turn check, but in my mind (at the time) I was pretty sure I had MP1 beat, and wanted to get UTG+1 out if at all possible, since I couldn't really narrow his hand down as well... he did what he always does... he called the whole time.

MrWookie · #10 02-13-2006, 10:48 AM

I'm pretty confident that he has an overpair, too. However, that board is pretty terrifying, even for AA. If the TAG was on the weak tight side, then I'd definitely expect him to check this behind a reasonable percentage of the time.