400nl (KK on button facing 4 bet)

[Golden]

[ QUOTE ]

Also if villain is on complete air (I think this is very possible here...20% time ish). We can induce a bluff shove.


[/ QUOTE ]

The villain has an aggression factor of 1, no way is he on air here, or even close to, 20% of the time.

[novel20]

"Villain is 20.6/8.8/1 over a worthless sample size"

Worthless sample size. So he is an unknown.

[Golden]

[ QUOTE ]
"Villain is 20.6/8.8/1 over a worthless sample size"

Worthless sample size. So he is an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, assume that an unknown has air 4 betting utg 20% of the time, I don't really care anymore.

[holdem2000]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Alebert's analysis is correct, it's neutral if villain never bluffs or shows up with AQ here, but since that's rarely the case, I think calling preflop and calling shove on flop > preflop shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Just about the worst case is villain has KK+ (if villain has a set it actuallly improves our equity compared to KK+), in which case calling costs under $43. Another likely range for villain is JJ+, AQ... in this case calling wins us over $222 of EV. Versus an unknown at this level the flop is a call and (at least after checking into it with PokerStove) it isn't even close. Enough unknowns are big fish where you're way ahead, and plenty of the players that aren't fish are making a few moves... more than balances out the occasional guy with KK+ who you pay off an extra $43 of EV.

[CopTHIS]

I'd just stick it in pre against an unknown. Nobody ever folds anything half decent PF getting 2:1 after they've 4-bet.

[effang]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop, you aren't beating anything and not exactly getting the right odds to call for the flush that might not be good. UTG raises, you reraise, he reraises you. I guess he could have AK, but it's more likely he has AA or a set.

If the flop is rainbow, then it's an even easier fold.
If the flop is all spades, then it's the same as rainbow in my opinion. You are horrible against the utg's 4 betting range.

edit: didn't even notice that the villain has an aggression factor of 1, could be a spot to fold KK preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

the flush is definately good. the PF 4/bettor isn't shoving this flop with AxAd because he has a monster hand. He has JJ+, AA no diamonds, set no diamonds

[Renton]

i like a fold pre. Also i like coldcalling pre instead of 3betting.

as played call

[Renton]

what, what is the sample size?

[sapol]

I shove pre flop, you are ahead of his range.
If you call the flop you are only hoping an A doesn't so that you can put it in.
An A didn't hit, you have an over pair and the second nut draw, I shove. Even if he has AA he is 50/50 to have the Ad (which is the only situation in which you are in terrible shape).
In the previous page someone said you need a 33% equity to make this an EV+ shove so:
- you shove KK and he has QQ GOOD !
- you shove and he has AdKd GOOD !
- you shove and he has AA without d you have 10 outs GOOD !
- you shove and he has AdAx BAD

those are the possible situations in case the money goes in.

Cliff notes: I shove pre flop but shove flop as played.

[sapol]

[ QUOTE ]
i like a fold pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know this is a horrible play right?

there's a phrase I heard once and said: "I only fold kings pre-flop if they are suited". you should remember it.