Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

[THEOSU]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent dependant, you can check a flush here, but it is a rare opponent you can do that to.

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Such as an opponent who has shown nothing but aggression?

[EverettKings]

The thing that gets me about this hand is the check/minraise check line he took on the flop and turn. I mean what person with what hand stops betting after a check minraise? Q9? QQ? And the river heart scared him?

I have a very hard time putting him on a draw here. A guy with a draw will (>95% of the time) either play passively and check/call until he hits, or will play aggressively and check/raise and bet and such. But checkraising small then checking on a relative blank? Nobody semibluffs like that!

In fact any hand he could have I can't understand his sudden change of aggression. The huge majority of the time he's either betting his hand or he's not. Unless the Q changed things heavily, this just doesn't make sense. Not that I'd dare accuse online players of always making sense, but at least something is going through their head. Had we checked the turn behind we'd have a much better idea of where we stand here, and be facing a smaller pot (though obviously that line has its own drawbacks).

This was mostly rambling, but I'm wondering what sense other posters make of the flop-turn combo and what sense the river makes. I'm not sure I'm reading this donkeyness correctly. Meh.

Everett

[CardSharpCook]

Just doesn't work, man. Far too often the aggression came from a one pair hand. All those hands check this river. You need too much from your opponent. First, he needs to be a relentless value-bettor. Not very many MTT players like that exist. From what I know of his play, sure, Strassa would be a good opponent to try this on. But you still need him to have... what? 55,77,99,QQ? That's the reasonable range villian should have us on as far as hands that bet this river. Those are the only hands a flush can expect a relentless Value bettor to bet. However, he can expect a wide range of hands to call. All those trip hands, plus a % of one pair hands. It is a lot more profitable for a flush to bet.

[THEOSU]

[ QUOTE ]
This was mostly rambling, but I'm wondering what sense other posters make of the flop-turn combo and what sense the river makes. I'm not sure I'm reading this donkeyness correctly. Meh.


[/ QUOTE ]

And I think what you're seeing is a disparity in two camps. When one group of posters sees uncertainty/confusion/et al, they respond with aggression and betting. When another group sees it, they respond with caution.

Generally, I'm in the former camp, but on the river I'm much more in the latter. Maybe that's something in my game I can address. If it's unanimous from the "masters", I can perhaps try to incorporate it in my game.

CSC, I think this is why you won't convince me (at this time) that a bet here is best, and I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise. It may be from past harrowing experiences that I hate putting chips in last to act on the river when the range of hands I have my opponent on is hardly convincing.

[Alex Jacob]

[ QUOTE ]
When last to act on the river, don't bet with a medium strength hand.

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did you get this from your poker cookbook? give me a break.

[Roman]

I cant put him on a better hand with this action, he would surely pusha flush. I rep a bluff and bet like 750 or whatever im feelin.

[bugstud]

I think everyone that is calling a push if they bet 700 needs to shove themselves. I think the people that are betting 700 to try to get value or get a better hand to fold are probably on target. I would honestly feel more sick here with 97 if my opp bet 700 instead of shoved.

[A_PLUS]

I guess my main problem with the bet is this:

If we give him credit for being a good player, how is he interpretting our actions? We bet every street, I see most hands that cant beat TP folding, and I think for every player you see call with A9, you will see a strangely played set, flush, or higher 2P.

I am starting to see the benefits of the bet, but I will have to think more about it.

[beenben]

For all you non-folders out there; you're trying to pick up 500-700 chips at the risk of getting busted when you could get 1800 for free and save yourself from the risk of losing your whole stack if he has his flush. Sure those 500-700 chips are important, but the 1800 are more important. If he made his flush, you've still got chips to work with. It seems like a no-brainer to check-behind.

[CardSharpCook]

There are a lot of players I wish had gotten involved in this discussion.