Solution to Limit Tournament Crapshoot Structure- Comments Appreciated

[doublejoker]

In Todays day 2 start of the stud hi-low as has all the limit events so far; the average chip count had 9 big bets meaning the player could play one maybe two hands to completion. I do not recall any other year at the world series where in every limit tourney on day 2 the average player would have less than 10 big bets. Here is a simple solution. The WSOP clock lists the total number of players and average chip stack and level of betting. For example in todays stud hi low the average chip count was about 7,000 and we were playing 400 800 to start day 2. My suggestion would be as follows; any time the average chip stack has less than a certain number ( somewhere between 10 and 15) of big bets at the beginning of a new round in a limit tournament, The structure from the prior round would be extended for 1 more round. In this case; since we reached the 400 800 level with an average chip count of only 7,000 we would continue the 300 600 struture for an additional hour. By the next hour the structure will have corrected itself somewhat and we would contue to 400 800 if the average chip stack had more than the determined number of big bets. If the structure is set up correctly and players always have at least 15 or so big bets; then no adjustments would need to be made and the tournament would continue as scheduled. The only way a round would be repeated is if the structure gets out of line and the average stack has less than a predetermined number of big bets.

This seems to be a reasonable way to ensure that players will not be forced to play 10 to 12 hours only to have risk their whole tournament on the play of one hand in day 2.

[SuperUberBob]

That would be a nightmare of a structure to maintain.

[doublejoker]

why? you just look at the number of players left and the average chipstack at the end of a given round; it is a 10 second calculation. This process doesnt even come into play until day 2. If the average number of big bets is too low you would play that round again.

[jck8]

ha....allen, u ok???

[NickMPK]

You need to keep to the limits rising so that the tournament won't last forever. The solution is to make the early levels both higher and longer. Right now the early levels are meaningless. But if more people are eliminated/build big stacks in the early levels, the average stack in the middle levels will be higher.

If players don't want to be aggressive and just wait around for great hands, they should be forced to risk their stack on a single hand.

[PokeReader]

I think the issue is the doubling of the initial chip stack. This is what threw off the limit events, as anyone that played limit would tell you it would. Frankly, I would appreciate it if the players on the advisory com. would either look at the structure or make room for someone who would. Honestly, no one who is on there is really a structure person.

To compensate for the doubled intial stacks in the limit events it seems they will need a larger initial bring in/blind and have levels advance faster at first and then slow later in the tournament. But someone needs to do the math on what the precise compensation needs to be. Also, the later blind structure in the NL events seems not to allow enough play, but I think Harrah's did this intentionally to get more of a WTP type final table, with the coordinating cheaper production costs.

Players need to scream loud and long about this because this year is the only year there is a chance of changing this. Disappointing so few players went to the meeting with Pollack.

[Bonified]

[ QUOTE ]

You need to keep to the limits rising so that the tournament won't last forever. The solution is to make the early levels both higher and longer. Right now the early levels are meaningless. But if more people are eliminated/build big stacks in the early levels, the average stack in the middle levels will be higher.

If players don't want to be aggressive and just wait around for great hands, they should be forced to risk their stack on a single hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is about right. Half the problem is that there is a mindset of "the levels are all the same length and the blinds increase gradually". There's no reason why the first four levels shouldn't be just one level, with limits such that a starting stack = 4 or 5 hands to the river. Then start to increase. When you basically don't eliminate anyone in the first three levels, it's bound to be too fast later on.

[GiantBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
Half the problem is that there is a mindset of "the levels are all the same length and the blinds increase gradually". There's no reason why the first four levels shouldn't be just one level, with limits such that a starting stack = 4 or 5 hands to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best solution I've seen so far. Give players 20-40 big bets and just let them play for 4 hours. Then bring up the levels in a way that if you weren't winning any hands yet, you're gonna get knocked off, but if you've built up a bit of a stack, it actually means something. There's so much Dogma when it comes to tourney structures. Would it really be so hard to do something a little different?

[GiantBuddha]

On another note, am I going to get much play in the $1000 SHOE event? I just reread the structure, and it's not what I thought it was originally. They may have changed it, or it may just be worded poorly. Rounds are 1 hour long, but games change every 30 minutes. But round 1 is Stud, round 2 is Holdem, etc. Round 1 is really rounds 1 & 2. I guess.

[doublejoker]

the levels are probably 30 minutes