Low flushes

[jeffnc]

Let's say the game is pot limit Omaha high. It's pretty well agreed that hands such as Qs Js 9h Th is a good starting hand. It's also said that if you draw in Omaha you ought to be drawing to the nuts. I've gotten gutted by hitting a flush and losing to a higher flush several times. Then I feel like an idiot because I've read this is exactly what you want to avoid. So my question is this. Why is the starting hand above much better than Qh Jd 9s 8c?

[Chimichonga]

Freeroll potential and backup/backdoor outs /flush-blockers.

More often than not, the suitedness is defensive rather than offensive.

[Lafortezza]

Depending on your opponents betting patterns in a particuar hand you can figure out if your flush draw is likely to be good or not.
Headsup (in a battle of the blinds for instance) I'll often draw to any flush, 7 high or whatever.

[Phishy McFish]

To address your specific question...[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty well agreed that hands such as Qs Js 9h Th is a good starting hand.....Why is the starting hand above much better than Qh Jd 9s 8c?

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be drawing or have made the NUT straight more often and not 2nd or "b****" end of it.

Then you can, as already stated br freerolling against someone for a higher straight or flush backers (or blockers if they have the higher flush draw too/only).

....that being said, pay attention to nothing I tell you as I am a LAG MANIAC and preflop hand selection does not apply in my poor attempt at strategy.

[RickyG]

for example, lets say that I held the

Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
You hold Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

We both Floped the nut straight on the following boart

9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
You would be thinking "Man, this is an awesome board for me, I have the nut straight with a redraw to the higher nut straight, I rule at life and will get all in here".

The result is that I am going to make a backdoor flush about 5% of the time here and win the entire pot, whereas you have 0% chance of ever winning the pot, only a 95% chance of splitting it.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1656022
pokenum -o qh jh ts 9s - qc js th 9d -- 9c 8s 7h
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9c 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts 9s Qh Jh 72 8.78 0 0.00 748 91.22 0.544
Js Qc 9d Th 0 0.00 72 8.78 748 91.22 0.456

There are many other situations where having suited cards are helpful but this was just one example.

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
The result is that I am going to make a backdoor flush about 5% of the time here and win the entire pot, whereas you have 0% chance of ever winning the pot, only a 95% chance of splitting it.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1656022
pokenum -o qh jh ts 9s - qc js th 9d -- 9c 8s 7h
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 9c 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts 9s Qh Jh 72 8.78 0 0.00 748 91.22 0.544
Js Qc 9d Th 0 0.00 72 8.78 748 91.22 0.456

There are many other situations where having suited cards are helpful but this was just one example.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just want to point out that your own example shows that it's more like 9% because you have 2 backdoor draws.

[RickyG]

You are correct sir, I was thinking of one backdoor flush.

[RoundTower]

Non nut flushes hold up way more than you guys think.

[Chimichonga]

[ QUOTE ]
Non nut flushes hold up way more than you guys think.

[/ QUOTE ]

True enough, as Lafortezza mentioned earlier there are things to look for in an opponent to help guide your decisions in whether or not to draw to non-nut flushes. However, when the OP mentions that he has been gutted by drawing to non-nut flushes, it seems best to start with the basics.

[Hattifnatt]

For example:

# You can flop a big draw, straight+flush draw where you are happy to get it all in even if you arent sure which outs are live
# If you flop the nut straight, you can easily have a flush draw with it or 1 or two backdoor flush draws

Bonus: (dont take into account too seriously)

# You can make a straight flush and win a lot of money from the A-flush