25/50 squeezed pot

[recallme]

ok, i loved every posts of yours, but i have to disagrre about Aj beeing a bad Squeeze hand.

1. How often will you be 4bet bluffed? I like folding after being 4bet here.

2. Do you like playing am Ad5s8s flop OOp vs 2 Villains
Or Jh9d3s, forgetting about all the flops you miss.

3. Balance your range

[FiSheYe]

The whole point is that after 4bets and shoves we would fold out a hand that has compareable good equity postflop.
By raising our hand we kinda transform it into a bluff while a hand like 96o would play terribly postflop and we don't mind a 4bet/shove that much.
If this table plays very loose and ppl will call your squeezes on a regular basis with worse hands (SC) then it's not a real squeeze but a value raise, there is definately a difference.
As played and posted by OP this is a squeeze play and not a value raise therefore I would much rather have a weakish hand with no domination and ugly postflop spots.
Also I doubt the "fold or squeeze" argument applies here. AJ is a clear call preflop if you don't elect to squeeze with it.
Folding this hand preflop seems out of question for me, keep in mind that with 18% equity required Ad5s8s flops aren't even what we can aim for.
We are looking for trips/2pair/straights and might ocassionaly see turn and river with just a pair if the board/conditions are right.
By saying AJo is a good squeeze here you basically say you think ATo, A9o and all of these hands are good, too because we cannot expect opponents to call a worse ace preflop and lower pocketpairs aren't a big concern in this case.
So would you play the same way with A9o ? No? Why not, with the current arguments this is a spot where AT or AJ might fold against you, therefore your squeeze play has more merit and plays worse postflop.
If you squeeze AJ because you believe it could be the best hand then it's not a real squeeze play and the situation has a wrong description.
If this is a raise for value pf that would change a lot and there is not much to argue about cuz I don't know the tableconditions well enough.
I stay with my argument, I don't like AJ as a bluff here (much rather have AT or A9 which are true bluffs and could fold out better aces plus we don't lose as much value postflop if 4bet/shoved on and our hand performs worse mutliway anyways so we don't like to call pf as much).

[irockhoess]

Fish,

I think the point I am trying to make is that calling here for value preflop is def a good option if there was just one other player in, but with 3 others already in, what flop are you really going to be extracting value from?

A guy who raises lets say A10 in the CO and gets called by 3 players, do you think when the flop comes down A96 he is going to be betting more than 1 MAYBE 2 bets into the pot? AJo is too low of a hand to have that many hands below us put enough value in without the flop being like JJx or KQ10.

I think AJo makes a good hand to raise here, sometimes fold, and very rarely call behind 3 people oop.

I think my argument is coming from me seeing 3 players in before us, us being oop, and very few flops are we going to be able to extract a lot of value from.

I def wouldnt squeeze AJ every time, but I disagree that calling is a great option here. You said in a previous post that it plays too well post flop, which against a CO or Button raiser is true, but against 3 hands seeing the flop, its value is much more as a bluff against standard players at this level.

[Ansky]

irock,

is this a new sn? cause i'm pretty sure the real irock is iRock on 2+2...

[irockhoess]

ya, i lost my old password and don't remember the email attached to it. after seeing that KQ vs KQ hand for 5k i don't think anyone would try to impersonate me haha.

[jlocdog]

irock,

Your post was well written in showing why a flat call is vastly inferior to fold/raising. Nice post.

[FiSheYe]

I agree that his logic was well put into words but I disagree with his conclusions.
Just put the players handranges into pokerstove and see if you average more than 18%, I am pretty sure you will be way above that.
Obviously we don't have a very good playability but it's not like we need to outplay a whole field of players with AJ for our tournament life.
You flop something or find a great spot to take their monies, do it.
Otherwise just move on and fold the hand.
If we flop a Jack or Ace there is a good chance we will have the best hand but we won't put much money in anyways.
If we hit 2pair we might win a biggish pot against AQ/AK..
We might be able to extract monies with trips or get some monies when hitting straight/nutflushdraw.
I agree that I would much rather have 76s than AJo to call in that spot but I would never think about folding this hand.

[irockhoess]

I think you value AJ as a hand more than I do. To me AJ and A10 are mentioned in the same breathe, whereas AQ is trying to squeak in to become AK's sidekick. I always find myself in really difficult situations with AJ oop. If you can play it for a better EV here by calling, i'd definitely call, but i just don't think i can play it more profitably than squeezing. At lower stakes, like the 5/10 i have been grinding the last few months, AJ gains much more value, but these 25/50 games are harder than even a year ago when i was playing them daily, and putting yourself in this position with a flat call is just going to want to make you hate life.

[king_of_drafts]

[ QUOTE ]
ya, i lost my old password and don't remember the email attached to it. after seeing that KQ vs KQ hand for 5k i don't think anyone would try to impersonate me haha.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL i rmemeber that

[irockhoess]

LOL?

thats just jealousy.
name the last time u 6 bet on a flop with K high chopping.