200NL I try to get value and he minraises me.

[Poker_is_Hard]

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Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

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So you're raising for information? Ugh. Really. Ugh. If you raise, it should either be as a bluff to get better hands to fold (no way he folds AA or KK here to a flop raise), or to get value from worse hands (unlikely he calls a flop raise with pairs less than a queen).

If you raise this flop, you're folding out worse hands and getting called by better ones. You're also bloating the pot out of position with two streets of betting to go when you have a solid hand you'd like to show down in a medium size pot. Not good.

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When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand.

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Nonsense. Put villain on a range of hands. Play poker. When you lead turn, you're going to get called a fair amount by worse hands thinking you're just messing with them as well as sometimes by a draw when villain raised with a suited connector or suited ace. Better hands will sometimes call, sometimes raise. Worse hands will almost never raise unless villain is absolutely blufftastic. That's a much better situation, on a later street, for the same price as raising the flop.

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I am raising to take control of a pot. I believe I have the best hand and want to accurately display that to my opponent. I view C/C and leading as a “tricky” way to play TPTK, taking lines such as this I believe puts you in marginal situations were it is harder to make a decision. This thread case in point, when he raises you on the turn, are you ahead or behind??

If he calls your check raise, you have at least taken control of the pot on the flop and can take action based on the turn card. If he repops your check raise, you know you are most likely behind and can fold.

[Ben86]

reptile about nailed my thoughts on everything in this thread. nice post.

[ReptileHouse]

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I view C/C and leading as a “tricky” way to play TPTK, taking lines such as this I believe puts you in marginal situations were it is harder to make a decision.

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I'm interested in maximum EV, not in making the hand easier to play.

Neither the turn nor the river are a particularly difficult decision. Unless this opponent is significantly bluffy, both are easy folds.

[joeblack]

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I'm interested in maximum EV, not in making the hand easier to play?

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How is this maximum EV? What if villian is on a flush draw? With your line we are either folding turn or river and are rarely making it through this hand alive.

Raise, take control, add pressure, protect hand.

[Poker_is_Hard]

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I'm interested in maximum EV, not in making the hand easier to play.


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Ok, I can understand this. I know at this point I tend to try and keep things simple b/c I don't have enough confidence in myself to make the right plays.

However, I don't see how C/C and leading is my EV. On the flop a std check raise would cost me $24 to find out where I am at in the hand.

On the turn it cost me $35, so the same info costs me $11 more on the turn.

Is this EV b/c hands that I beat call the $35? What range calls the 35 but folds to the std check raise?

At these stakes does KQ call my check raise and then call down? I've seen it happen.

[Paul Thomson]

check-raising and check-call then lead a safe turn are both decent options as long as you don't plan on folding in either spot. The board is drawy so you have to play it fast and can't afford to give a free card on the turn.

[EgoSlasher]

Every street is played poorly: 3bet pf, c/r the flop, c/c or c/r the turn. As played fold the river.

[Jamougha]

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Ok, I can understand this. I know at this point I tend to try and keep things simple b/c I don't have enough confidence in myself to make the right plays.

On the flop a std check raise would cost me $24 to find out where I am at in the hand.

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Lacking confidence is not an excuse to not make the right plays whe you know they're right, that's just weird talk.

If you cr the flop it is not bc you are trying to gain information. It's because you think his range for stacking off has less equity than your hand.

This whole 'finding out where you are' thing is mostly bs.

[EgoSlasher]

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Why do you all love check raising flop so much more than calling and leading the turn?

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What is the advantage of check/calling and then leading?

Check raising exposes the strength of your hand and therefore allows you to get a read on his hand base on his reaction.

When you C/C and then lead, you have allowed the hand to move to the turn and you still have no idea where you stand. So when you lead bet gets raised you are now sitting with your thumb up your butt.. are you ahead, behind, does he had AQ too?... you have no idea and no cheap way of finding out.

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if I Cr and am called i got the same information as leading for the same price except on a later street.. i think chk call and lead is good as well unless im missing something.

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Several problems:
1. He can raise you with air often and give you an impossible decision.
2. He can raise you with draws and force you to often fold the best hand.
3. He can raise you with made hands.
4. You have no way of knowing which he raised you with.
5. If he calls you have no idea what cards are good/bad for him.
6. If he's tricky he can float the turn and bet/push the river on you.

There's more but that's just off the top of my head.

Edit: Basically you place yourself in a spot where villain can play perfectly vs you but you can't play perfectly vs him.