TD2-7: Two freeze attempts

[MarkGritter]

$5/$10 table.

Hand #1:

Hero raises from UTG with T7632; SB three-bets and Hero caps, everybody else folds.

1st draw: SB is pat; hero draws one and gets an 8. SB bets, Hero calls.

2nd draw: Both pat. SB bets again, Hero calls.

3rd draw: SB draws one, Hero pats. Hero checks behind on river.

Hand #2:

CO raises, Hero 3-bets from the button with A8643, blinds fold.

1st draw: Both take one, hero gets a 3, both players check.

2nd draw: Both take one, hero gets a 7 for 87643. CO bets, Hero calls.

3rd draw: CO pats, Hero pats. CO bets, Hero calls.

What conditions should we be looking for to make a freeze attempt?

A "freeze" refers to smooth-calling instead of raise to try to keep an OOP player from breaking. Not to be confused with just calling down. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tablecop]

i don't look for freeze attempts, i think the move is highly overrated.

i'd play hand #1 just as you played and i'd call it "just calling down" with no shame about it whatsoever. Villian would have to start pat with at about dozen distinct 9s for a raise with 87632 to be for value (more if he's capable of folding some of them). And he's not breaking/folding better hands often enough to snow so what else is there to do with it? If raising makes no sense at all i don't think that what you are doing here can be called freezing.

hand #2 could be raised for value against most opponents. one of the reasons why i don't look to freeze is that at these stakes the villian is planning to draw after a mere call on your part 20% of the time. i just feel too stupid and poorer when i've frozen someone still drawing.

[DeathDonkey]

I think freezes are underrated and I like both plays.

-DeathDonkey

[2461Badugi]

I dislike the first one because you have the opportunity to gain information and make a better drawing decision, and can do it cheaply on second. I also think calling down here getting less than 2:1 is pretty horrible unless he will pat tens and not break them on third anyway once he sees you're pat.

The second one is textbook.

[iron81]

I think hero has to fold the river in hand 2. He's not bluffing and barring reads he wouldn't value bet a 9 here. The reason you call on round 3 in hand 2 isn't because you're doing some kind of tricky play to keep CO from breaking, it's because your hand isn't strong enough to raise.

Sure, CO might be betting a 9 or T against someone who he thinks is drawing, but you're behind his range on round 3 (Pat T unlikely but possible, probably pat 9 or better). When you pat behind him, he knows you have a 9 or better so he won't be betting a 9. His range on the river can be narrowed to an 876 or better, weighted toward an 86 or better.

Hand 1 is fine if Villain is willing to 4 bet pat 9's, which most are at that level.

[tablecop]

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I think hero has to fold the river in hand 2. He's not bluffing and barring reads he wouldn't value bet a 9 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

he shouldn't be bluffing because most players will never fold after freezing, but if you demonstrate an ability to do so expect that to be noticed.

[tablecop]

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I dislike the first one because you have the opportunity to gain information and make a better drawing decision, and can do it cheaply on second.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he 3bets, you know you're beat and it's even possible you may not have the odds to draw the final time. if he breaks you're good but he's (maybe) live. that's some excellent information but at this level the most common reponse is call-pat and that range still includes a lot hands you beat and lot hands you lose to.

[DPP LDR]

I think the Freeze Play has its place but like most limit poker its better to play strait foreward when you have a strong hand or a hand you believe to be strong enough at the moment, as always with every street/draw you may have to re-evaluate your position in the hand and thusly adjust your play it sounds like your playing pretty formulaic and are looking to mix things up, maybe unnecisarily, as for my opinion on your actual ? the conditions you should be looking for are when your hand is mediocre at best but still believe it to be slightly better than your opponents
hand and you dont want him to realise this and draw to improve on the hand or worse yet make his hand worse and you not get paid at all

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike the first one because you have the opportunity to gain information and make a better drawing decision, and can do it cheaply on second. I also think calling down here getting less than 2:1 is pretty horrible unless he will pat tens and not break them on third anyway once he sees you're pat.

The second one is textbook.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%.

The second one you can fold the river against some people but the freeze itself is the most standard freeze spot for me ever.

First one you have to put in a raise after the draw. Against some people if they pat after you raise you can still be ahead a ton of the time and value bet both big bet streets. Against some you are ahead fairly often and might want to bet the turn but check behind the river. Against some others you are crucified and need to draw.

[InWithTheBest]

Hand 1 is tough because your supposed to raise cause u beat a ton of his range, but when you raise he will 3b like 90% of his hands because its on the small bet street and its cheap to do. Than your going to start second guessing on whether a break is correct, which it never is against a pat hand predraw. I like raising and than freezing his standard 3b with a pat and calling the turn and praying he checks the river at which point i like bet/folding against a straightforward player (who wouldnt c/r the river with a 9 trying to get you to save a bet) and checking behind against a tricky player. that part is close too.

Hand 2 i think is a raise but its close.. Im thinking you could flip a coin in this spot. If you freeze you need to call the river becauase you beat a couple of 8s and all the good 9s that could bet this spot.