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  #11  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:05 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

[ QUOTE ]
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you guys confuse the right strategy for "calling station" and "bets his board" with "LAG" a whole lot, and it costs everyone on this board so many pots/bets/whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forget which villain this is, but he's probably "bets his board" than truly LAG and he won't go nuts w/ T8 but he will keep betting on the future streets if he catches poorly. The raise on 3rd is necessary, but the cap probably isn't. He would put me on something like 7a2 probably and not dead cards, so it's not giving my hand away.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is the reraise on 3rd necessary? What does it accomplish? Even if you don't give away the exact cards, you give away that you have 2 wheel cards.
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:14 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

Well, we might have different definitions of what LAG means. There is stupid LAG, which is going to bet whenever he thinks he might have you bet, or thinks you might fold, or whatever, but who will call or re-raise if you raise. Then there's smarter LAG who thinks the same but who will fold his crap if you raise him on 5th. If you try to out-aggress one of these guys, you pay much more when you're behind or he's drawing live, and you make less when he's got nothing.

In order to extract a lot of bets out of this guy, you need to be both ahead, but he needs to at least think he's drawing live.

What I don't understand is why you're so concerned about "giving away" our hand on 3rd but not on 5th or 6th, when it really matters.

And yes, you get villain to play 7th correctly by folding. After you got him to play 5th and 6th incorrectly, by betting.
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:20 PM
ChipsAhoya ChipsAhoya is offline
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Posts: 749
Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

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Why is the reraise on 3rd necessary? What does it accomplish?

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To isolate with the guy who sucks.

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Even if you don't give away the exact cards, you give away that you have 2 wheel cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I narrowed my range from a a 76 to a 75? I could still maybe have a 76 because a 6 is out...

-ChipsAhoya
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:22 PM
ChipsAhoya ChipsAhoya is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Dakota
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Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, we might have different definitions of what LAG means. There is stupid LAG, which is going to bet whenever he thinks he might have you bet, or thinks you might fold, or whatever, but who will call or re-raise if you raise. Then there's smarter LAG who thinks the same but who will fold his crap if you raise him on 5th. If you try to out-aggress one of these guys, you pay much more when you're behind or he's drawing live, and you make less when he's got nothing.

In order to extract a lot of bets out of this guy, you need to be both ahead, but he needs to at least think he's drawing live.

What I don't understand is why you're so concerned about "giving away" our hand on 3rd but not on 5th or 6th, when it really matters.

And yes, you get villain to play 7th correctly by folding. After you got him to play 5th and 6th incorrectly, by betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for articulating this much better than I can after not sleeping in AC this weekend.

-ChipsAhoya
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  #15  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:34 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds
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  #16  
Old 11-11-2007, 09:56 PM
ChipsAhoya ChipsAhoya is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 749
Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is awful because I've played with him before, and he's a bad player. It is very likely he does not have a better draw than me the whole way; although I can't be sure.

I want to wait to raise the river because; on 6th, I can't have better than a 76. I'm a lot less likely to get r/r on the river. Also, if he's bluffing, I get one more bet out of him on the river. By just calling 6th; I lose less when I'm behind and win the same when I'm ahead because he'll bluff the river again and/or call a value raise.

-ChipsAhoya
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  #17  
Old 11-12-2007, 04:21 PM
betgo betgo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 15,430
Default Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is awful because I've played with him before, and he's a bad player. It is very likely he does not have a better draw than me the whole way; although I can't be sure.

I want to wait to raise the river because; on 6th, I can't have better than a 76. I'm a lot less likely to get r/r on the river. Also, if he's bluffing, I get one more bet out of him on the river. By just calling 6th; I lose less when I'm behind and win the same when I'm ahead because he'll bluff the river again and/or call a value raise.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]
I see the raise has some point for isolation. However, you are not getting anyone with a 7 low or better to fold. In fact, they almost certainly jam if they can beat the 7 with the raise from the LAG and a reraise from a 7.
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