Double WTF w/ QQ - 2/5 NL B&M

[Teetster]

I was at Seneca Niagara in the 2/5 NL game yesterday. Great game, finished up almost $700. Anyways this happened early in the session.


At this point in the game I have only been here 15 mins or so, and have no reads.

I'm in mid-late position, 2 off the button, I am dealt

Qd Qs

Action:

UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to $15, 3 or 4 folds to me

I re-raise to $45.

both players behind me call (WTF?)

Blinds fold

UTG re-raises all in for about $800 (double WTF??)

UTG+1 the initial raiser folds

Action is on me. I have about $600 in front of me, UTG+1 has me covered, I have the two remaining players behind me covered.

What do I do here? UTG limped and then re-raised all in. I had no reads at this point, so I couldn't put him on a hand. (OK, I put him on a range, but I had no solid reads to go on.)

Before I made my decision I looked left and both players behind me were pretty anxious to muck. Both unprotected their cards and it was pretty clear they were out.

So, if I called it was heads up.

What should I do here?

[Hail Eris]

lol, limp 4bet AI. Fold, because this is AA/KK and really nothing else. I give serious consideration to folding KK here.

[AggJedi]

His actions have AA written all over it, let this one go.

[thedustbustr]

its either AK (a coinflip with very little in the pot to make it worth it) or KK/AA which has you destroyed.

[ReptileHouse]

I've seen that move, both online and live, from lots more than AK/KK+. Mid-pairs willing to coinflip against AK and/or wanting folds from TT-QQ being the most common.

It's always a hand that wants to play heads up, wants a showdown, and doesn't want to play a big pot post-flop out of position.

For live donks, though, the LRR can sometimes be the absolute height of tricky "ZOMG TRAPPED J00!" play with AA.

Without reads in a live game to tell which type of player it is, I generally give the benefit of the doubt to the LRR and lay down QQ here.

[TurdFerguson]

Fold your QQ face-up. This is AA/KK too often to call such a large 4-bet, barring any further info like a LAG-gy read. In a live game I'm amazed how often I can get others to show monsters or bluffs by showing and mucking in the manner I described. In this case showing the QQ would help build a tight image early in your session, no?

[Teetster]

Interesting, I guess my analysis wasn't too far off.

Here's what went down.

From what little I knew at this point, he seemed agressive. I just couldn't fathom him limping AA or KK early in this game. Everyone almost always calls preflop at this game, so he would be stupid not to bet KK or AA rather than limp.

So, I put Villan on AK. (I know, I know...)

If I call I'm flipping and if one of the other people behind me calls then I'm probably in trouble. (More outs against my made hand.)

As I said, I really thought they would fold, but suddenly getting 3-1 on their $ might have changed that.

So I laid it down. The other 2 players folded. We all showed except UTG+1 who already mucked.

UTG showed KJ off suit (ugh)

UTG+1 the initial raiser claimed to have big slick

I folded QQ

1st player behind me showed AQ

2nd player behind me showed A3 suited

Had I called and the 2 players behind me folded I was a 3-1 favorite. Oh well, I still think it was the right play, and it seems most of you do as well.

Thanks - Brian

[Hince]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold your QQ face-up. This is AA/KK too often to call such a large 4-bet, barring any further info like a LAG-gy read. In a live game I'm amazed how often I can get others to show monsters or bluffs by showing and mucking in the manner I described. In this case showing the QQ would help build a tight image early in your session, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the fold, but disagree with showing it. I really don't care to see the other players hand enough to show that I am tight. An UTG limp reraise is usually AA/KK, so I think it is correct to lay this down against an unknown. If he is a douche and has something like KJos, you will find that out anyway in a few hands.

The last thing I want is to show that I can be pushed around, it makes for difficult decisions later in the game.

[Severus]

i agree with hince, just pretend it's no big deal and throw it in the muck.
and plus you have two people acting after you so you can't even show if you wanted to.

[SMACK BOOTY]

One aspect of this hand that posters are ignoring somewhat is that this was live. Not to get into the B&M vs online debate, but I have found live players to be WAY worse than online. I have seen players make a similar move like this with AK several times live with the EXCEPTION that nobody has gone AI with a big stack. Adding the stupid B&M factor in, and this decision becomes much more difficult looking at
hand frequency including AK as an option.
Having said that, I HOPE I would have layed it down too, and used the knowledge gained by people showing their hands to my advantage over the evening.
Oh, and like another poster said, I would never have showed my hand, just said some about "a big hand". You can't let people think they can blast you out of the best hand with a big bet, or you will spend the evening looking at these decisions.