Our brains (preferences and the such)

[xorbie]

This is what I was trying to get across in that other thread, but got off on the wrong foot more often than a blind man trying to dance the waltz with his deaf wife:

Clearly, our brain is where we make decisions. Our brain is a very, very, complex piece of machinery. I believe the following things are true:

1. A very large part, and sometimes all of, a decision occurs at what we may call the "pre-conscious" level. I prefer the term "pre-conscious" here to "sub-conscious" because frequently these things become apparent to our consciousness only after the fact. Things like word choice, risk tolerance and the such are frequently assumed to be conscious but frequently are not (or at least not entirely).

2. As such, we frequently make decisions that are contrary to our consciously stated goals, even if those goals may in fact be best for us in the long run. This is because our pre-conscious decision making system is often faulty, picks up on false cues, or some factor is so overpowering that we almost cannot act otherwise (drug addiction being a powerful example).

3. I do not like to view people as neuro-chemical machines. When we are aware of our biases and take enough time, we can overcome them. We can adjust our decisions based on known biases by our "gut instincts" and we can furthermore actually reduce certain physiological symptoms/functions simply through conscious decisions (mind over matter - true story!).

As such, I think there has to be a lot more to "revealed preferences" than merely saying "actions reveal what we prefer, because what we prefer is what we do". That is a compact definition but does not really tell us much about the world, wherein it often "feels" like we do the opposite of what we had wanted and are at a loss as to why.

I think that there are two general ways people make mistakes, and it is important to clarify this difference (although both can be present in varying degrees):

1. Mistaken beliefs/information: As Borodog mentioned in the previous thread, if I believe that tap dancing through the night will cure cancer, you might find me tap dancing through the night quite frequently. This won't cure cancer. That does not mean I've acted irrationally or contrary to my preferences or anything. More subtly, our brain machinery frequently picks up on certain cues and makes certain assumptions. Teacher sees a black student is more likely to assume (pre-consciously) that this student comes from a disadvantaged situation and is more likely to put the kid into a special needs class where he chronically under performs. Is teacher being irrational? No, teacher simply has false beliefs, beliefs which teacher does not even know about! The great philosopher Slavoj Zizek refers to these things as "unknown knowns" in the tradition of the slightly less great philosopher Donald Rumsfeld.

2. Acting contrary to utility maximization: This one is obviously where things become a whole lot trickier, because utility maximization can only be known to an omniscient force to whose mind we are not privy. However, we frequently act opposed to that voice in our head. I think these voices are very real in the sense that different parts of your brain actually prefer different things, and whichever yells louder (pumps out more chemical/electric signal) "wins". It is quite clear to me that even if this is hard to formalize it is a very real effect that should not be ignored.

Fin.

[pvn]

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2. Acting contrary to utility maximization: This one is obviously where things become a whole lot trickier, because utility maximization can only be known to an omniscient force to whose mind we are not privy. However, we frequently act opposed to that voice in our head. I think these voices are very real in the sense that different parts of your brain actually prefer different things, and whichever yells louder (pumps out more chemical/electric signal) "wins". It is quite clear to me that even if this is hard to formalize it is a very real effect that should not be ignored.

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You probably should not ignore this for yourself. But why would you care if other people do this or not? Since you acknowlege that you can't know other's preferences (and hence, their relative utility rankings of different alternatives) worrying about utility maximization for other people is stupid. If someone wants to be miserable, that's his perogative. Mind your own [censored] business.

I suspect you're already formulating a "but I didn't say I want to maximize other people's utility" response. You didn't come right out and say it. But many people in this forum DO use this argument, or variations of it, over and over again. And really, let's be honest... if this isn't what you're angling at, what is even the point of mentioning it?

[xorbie]

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Since you acknowlege that you can't know other's preferences (and hence, their relative utility rankings of different alternatives) worrying about utility maximization for other people is stupid

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I can't Know, but I can know. Since other people also have brains, I can safely assume a good deal of things about them. This is why the human activity of giving advice is still around.

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I suspect you're already formulating a "but I didn't say I want to maximize other people's utility" response.

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No, I'm actually quite interested in maximizing other people's utility. I don't see why anyone other than a complete misanthrope wouldn't be interested in this to some degree.

Does this mean I want to force people to control their lives to strict degrees? No, but one of the main reasons for this is that utility cannot be maximized (for many people) under conditions where their choices are not theirs to make.

[pvn]

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No, I'm actually quite interested in maximizing other people's utility. I don't see why anyone other than a complete misanthrope wouldn't be interested in this to some degree.

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Because people who aren't micromanaging busybodies respect other people's autonomy. If someone asks you for help, great.

If not, MYOFB.

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Does this mean I want to force people to control their lives to strict degrees? No, but one of the main reasons for this is that utility cannot be maximized (for many people) under conditions where their choices are not theirs to make.

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So if it weren't for that pesky fact, you'd be all for directly controlling every aspect of other people's lives in the name of utility maximization?

[tomdemaine]

Xorbie,

Who is most likely to know someone's preferences and act in the best way to achieve them? That person or someone else? They may not be perfect but they are the best. It's like property rights and self ownership. They may not be 100% absolute but who has a higher claim on my body and the products thereof than me?

[xorbie]

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Who is most likely to know someone's preferences and act in the best way to achieve them?

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Why do you think it is reasonable that this sort of question should have a simple answer? Sometimes the person himself. Sometimes someone else.

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They may not be perfect but they are the best.

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No. If you think about, for example, children, you can why this is wrong. Just carry it to the logical conclusion.

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It's like property rights and self ownership. They may not be 100% absolute but who has a higher claim on my body and the products thereof than me?

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It's related, but what you've done is turn what was a positive account of something into a moral issue.

[tomdemaine]

Children aren't the same moral category as adults as they have observable empirical biological differences. I genuinly don't understand how one adult can claim to know another adults personal preferences better than they do. Honestly I'd like to see evidence or something that'll open my eyes because I simply can't get my head around the concept.

[xorbie]

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No, I'm actually quite interested in maximizing other people's utility. I don't see why anyone other than a complete misanthrope wouldn't be interested in this to some degree.

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Because people who aren't micromanaging busybodies respect other people's autonomy. If someone asks you for help, great.

If not, MYOFB.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first problem with this is that it certainly doesn't (and shouldn't) hold at all social levels. What you said is true of some random guy in the street that I come across (under most circumstances).

The second problem is actually that people are not time consistent. It's actually an interesting thought experiment to see what you'd have to say about someone who says something along the lines of "tomorrow do X to me" but the next day tells you not to. I know this seems overly pedantic but I think it's an important case that certainly has pragmatic applications.

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Does this mean I want to force people to control their lives to strict degrees? No, but one of the main reasons for this is that utility cannot be maximized (for many people) under conditions where their choices are not theirs to make.

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So if it weren't for that pesky fact, you'd be all for directly controlling every aspect of other people's lives in the name of utility maximization?

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Your asking me if it would be a problem to take away people's freedom in the hypothetical situation in which people did not value their freedom?

Yeah, I'd say it's ok.

[xorbie]

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Children aren't the same moral category as adults as they have observable empirical biological differences.

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Why are adults in the same moral category as one another even though they also have observable biological differences?

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I genuinly don't understand how one adult can claim to know another adults personal preferences better than they do. Honestly I'd like to see evidence or something that'll open my eyes because I simply can't get my head around the concept.

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There's almost no definition of "preferences" under which I can understand your confusion.

Person A: I want to see Band X play.
Person B: I suspect that given that you like Band Y a lot you would probably rather see Band Z play.

or...

Person A: I really love my abusive husband and want to stay with him.
Person B: Orly?

or (and this one is really clever)...

Person A: I need advice, I don't know what to do.

Has nothing like this ever come up in your life?

[Richard Tanner]

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Why are adults in the same moral category as one another even though they also have observable biological differences?

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I'm dying to know the answer to this one.

Cody