Limpers

[Absolution]

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Problem examples would be raising with the lower end of the range, 109s, 89s, etc. and flopping:

1) Top pair on a two flush/two to a straight board, it seems if I am checked to and bet, it goes call/call/call and now everyone has odds to draw to "anything" including overs.

2) Flop 2nd pair on a dry board, and bet with calls all the way, do you fire three streets? If not where do you stop?

Thanks!

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These aren't problems. If you Raised T9s pre-flop and then flopped top pair on a two flush/two straight board you bet the flop for value and again on the turn to any safe turn cards. It will be obvious when you're beat. If I flop 2nd pair on a dry board I will likely follow up on the turn if I have position. These guys will peel the flop and turn with A high on a dry board. When to value bet the river is a difficult skill and one of the keys to beating these games. You'll have to post hands to figure that one out. They will also peel the flop and turn with small pp or bottom pair on a dry board. Just because you take advantage of an equity edge pre-flop, doesn't mean you have to try and win every pot post-flop. If you can use the strength you showed pre-flop then go ahead, but otherwise you can generally deal with the situation as it comes.

[Guy McSucker]

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Hmmm, raising any of those would be fine. The 77 and QJs are easy raises.


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Am I going to win the pot > 25% with 77 vs three players?

Alternatively, does it buy me enough free rides to the turn that I don't have to?

These games play a lot like the old full ring SSHE games that Ed Miller wrote his book about, and these forums pretty much had those games down cold. I've just forgotten it all and it makes me feel stupid.

[vmacosta]

The medium stakes forum has a good feel for this stuff (live players openlimp constantly). I think a good starting rule of thumb is to raise nearly all the hands you open utg --then you can mess around with the margins. Also, be willing to limp with lots of suited stuff and DONT throw away hands like A9o, contrary to previous books.

[vmacosta]

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I'd call 87s and raise the others.

Raise A6s and limp A2s-A5s

Raise T9s and limp 98s

Raise 66 and limp 55-22.

Raise KQo prolly limp KJo. Def limp KTo.

Raise ATo, limp A2o-A9o.

Limp QJo, QTo, Q9o, J9o, T9o


I am curious to know why people would raise 87s..?

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oink, pretty sure limping A2o is awful here. Not crazy about any of the offsuit 9's you mentioned either, but they're at least close (and I prolly limp them out of action-addiction too).

What do you do with the suited junk? K4s? Q6s? J7s? T7s? I see tags limp with stuff a live midstakes guy would cringe at.

[jba]

"What do you do with the suited junk?"

yes no no yes

I also don't like limping A2o.

[Oink]

vma. I overlimp all those hands you mentioned. I overlimp Kxs after limpers and most Qxs. Basically I want to limp most playable hands here. I also suspect that I could loosen up profitably with more offsuit hands like T8o or 87o.

BTW it should be mentiond that it depends on stakes and rake. A lot more hands are profitable at 10/20 than at 0.5/1


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I also don't like limping A2o.

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I must admit I havent done it much and havent gotten used to it. The reason I mentioned it was because I saw Deathdonkey claim it was ok in some thread were he was in the well - I think it was in small stakes.

Its possible that I dont remember what he said correctly and that he wanted more limpers to overlimp Axo. So take it FWIW. But I doubt overlimping A2o is a much bigger mistake than overlimping A6o. Just be careful postflop.