How would you handle this typical situation?

[StellarWind]

Tiny pots similar to the following constructed problem occur in virtually every online session. We rarely discuss them which is unfortunate because correct play is not obvious.

Assume you are playing 6-max somewhere in the 3/6 to 10/20 range.

Cutoff limps first in. Cutoff is 45/12. Postflop he plays in a fairly straightforward manner and is neither good nor awful. Like most normal 6-max players he takes some shots at unattended pots.

The Button folds and Hero completes the 1/2 small blind with ??.

BB checks. BB is a typical 26/17 regular who knows you reasonably well. He tries to play well and quite often manages to do so but he's not a superstar.

Flop (3 players, 3SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

It's your turn. What is your plan with:

a) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

b) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

c) T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

d) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

e) J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

f) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Show your work. Answers without reasons don't help anyone.

[sweetjazz]

a) I would lead out hoping to get some action. My hand is strong enough to reraise if someone obliges my desires by raising. Sometimes, I would check intending to check/raise since I am not worried very much about free cards, will make some money from inducing bluffs, and will sometimes make more money from hands that will call down if I bet out but will bet and then call down if I check raise. To some extent the reason I bet out here with top and bottom is to balance those times I bet out with weaker hands.

b) I would generally check to give worse hands a chance to bet drawing slim.

c) I would usually bet out because I am happy to take the pot right here and fold out overcards, and I have outs to fall back on if my hand is not best.

d) I would usually check, intending to fold to a bet (though perhaps check/raising a bet by the CO). If I bet out, it was because I thought I could take this pot down more than 1 out of 4 times, in which case I would bet any two cards (i.e. the fact that I have a pair right now and my hand might be "best" at the moment is irrelevant; what I really have if I don't win the pot on the flop immediately is a 2-out draw, along with weak backdoor straight/flush draws).

e) I'd usually bet out here as my chances of taking the pot immediately or improving to the best hand usually make this a +EV bet.

f) I'd usually check/fold this hand (again sometimes check/raising a button bet if I think he will fold immediately often enough, and sometimes betting out if I think I can win the pot immediately often enough).

In theory, a bet with any two cards might show an immediate profit. In practice, I don't try this play all of the time, and therefore I usually balance by trying to steal with hands that have a little extra (but note that Js9s is a better stealing hand than 2h 2d in this regard).

[downrange]

co limps probably crap like little pair, nearly any suited connector, bigger connecter up to a gap or single broadway up to two gaps, weak A/K.

bb has a hand he knows serves no purpose raising even w/position on tag so it's everything below his suited A-big, KJo/Ts, 88/99 stuff.

a) don't want to risk check through so bet; if bb raises HU I 3-bet;

b) hope for a co bet so c-r for HU; TPNK isn't so hot and don't feel the same free card risk as a);

c) same as #2 but I don't really like that much and this one is tough for me,

d) c-f; flop bet seems pointless but I might consider betting some turns (wouldn't be many but little cards, draw bricks);

e) c-c if bb bets 3-handed or likely c-f if co bets;

f) c-f.

[milesdyson]

a) check flop. there are a bunch of different scenarios, none of which seem any better by betting, one of which is way better checking (1).

1. bb has nothing. button has nothing. checking wins more obviously.
2. bb has something. button has nothing. when you check, bb could also check to the button and let him bluff. whatever you do here it looks like checking is better (you likely get the bluff from button and if you don't your hand looks ridiculous to bb with any action on turn).
3. bb has nothing, button has something. bb can still bluff when you check. button may raise or bet if checked to.
4. they both have something. doubt it matters in this case.

b) check flop for same reasons really, though i'm not looking to get mass action here. mainly i am check calling twice with this hand and then feeling my way through the river based on the cards. most of the time i am betting out if it is headsup on the river, especially if something like a T/J/Q/K falls on the turn.

c) i'm betting here because this hand is close to the breakpoint in hand strength where i would rather take the pot down on the flop or turn and i also want to use the information gained by the flop bet to better play my hand later. if both call i am usually c/fing turn unimproved. if both call and i turn a T/8 i am c/ring like a fish.

d) i am check folding because i don't bet any two cards in this spot, even though it may be +ev (i think it is close to both of them folding 1/4 times)

e) i am betting because like i said in d) i think both of them fold close to 25% of the time, however this hand has more equity against better hands than 22 does.

f) d)

[sweetjazz]

This thread deserves more responses.

[jstill]

most people hate threads where they have to write more than a word or two to respond or answer about multiple variations of a hand. I used to try it a lot and the number of responses fewer to a very specific hand with one exact action is stifling (did i spell that rite?), still try to sometimes, these threads are definitely more useful.

i would have said bet a but miles sold me on checking from now on,

b id usually ck

c id bet

d + e i sometimes bet usually ck fold depends on what it hink button peels, if total air i give up the small pot, if quasi reasonable i mite take a stab, is this a spot where i should always be doing one or the other? doesnt feel like it, I think these are spots where if u always do it it becomes -ev to do so as people catch on so u have to balance it a bit better.

f i ck fold


as for what I complete, vs a terrible button who peels almost any flop with ATC i just complete small pairs 55 and down and Axo duno if we should raise those more or less with that button description? tough to think of a solid player who will limp the button tho so its only these clowns we re usually against in this spot. I know inferno raises a wide range here. I just call some suited crap in a 1/2 maybe i shouldnt, 2/5 or 1/3 which im used to Im raising or folding alot it seems like not sure of my exact range to be honest which is perhaps worrisome. fwiw i dont mind calling KT i like raising KJ tho I know some just complete even that strong of a hand. Id just call JT probably raise it or QTs tho not sure whats best to be honest this is a spot I dont htink about enough probably, there is merit to keepin the pot small and not gaining initiative out of position vs a calling station with hands we wont want to showdown often.

[Heisenb3rg]

Apoligize for the disorganized nature of my response:

How to handle a button who will often/always "peel" the flop check/raise

If I suspect he will "peel the flop c/r" I'll check-raise them all except j6o which I check fold.

I do this mostly to balance my play.. Since im so often check/folding scary flops, it's almost always correct for a late position player to bet any 2 cards... and im likely not getting anymore action from a player of this description unless he has me beat. including if I just call this flop.. Once I call the flop Ive given away almost as much information as if I took the lead on it.

How I handle future streets depends on the cards that fall.
On a board like this, nearly all turns I fire, because of the assumption he peels the flop c/r. While most rivers I get passive with.
I'll proabily c/c low aces on the river, c/f most other pairs and air. (sometimes c/c a low pair if a diamond doesnt fall + supicious timing).

If a card on the turn like the 9 of spades comes up, I have air and the river brings a diamond; I may fire another barrel with air since I figure he now can have a bunch of draws in his range that he picked up on the turn that may fold.. Also, he may even lay down a lower pair cause he may have put me on a flush draw or pair of aces.. Both of which he is losing to.

Id sexy or b/c two pair+ depending on the cards that fall. Mostly sexy. This is because most of the time, when they call you to the river, its beacuse they hit the turn card or they have a pair of aces. So it the turn is like a J/K/Q.. Ill probabily lead. If the turn is a blank and they call, Ill probabily check/raise..


How to handle a player who would very likely fold to your flop check/raise on the flop

If I suspect the player is not very good as to read my inconsistancies, but will fold if he doesnt have a pair or a draw. I'll c/r the flop with my mid pairs and air, c/f UI air on the turn.. c/c the flop/turn/river with weak aces, donking if a JKQ falls anywhere.

With two pair I would call the flop and donk any turn planning to 3-bet.

I'd c/r with air more frequently against this player type.

Reason I c/r my air and pairs instead of a pair of aces is because I believe I can knock the BB's hand out assuming he doesnt have a pair of aces or a diamond draw. If I bet, he's coming in with any pair. If HE bets, Ill have information about where I stand in the hand and wont bother taking a stab at the pot.. If button calls or raises, I can muck any hand worse than a pair of aces.
If I improve, I wont know where I stand if I had just bet.

However, if I c/r and BB cold calls or 3-bets, Ill know where I stand right away and probabily c/f the turn regardless of what comes (unless I improve to 2pair).

If I have a pair of aces+ , my call may incorrectly suck BB's worse pair into the pot too. Best scenario is with 2 pair, you suck him into the pot, and he improves to a worse two pair.

CONCLUSION

I gave two different scenarios for different player profiles, and the line I take can be very different for each. Without a read other than merely "average, somewhat agressive", I would probabily take the lines of the second player profile.. However, I would probabily check/raise a pair of aces most of the time intead.. And I'd fire another barrel on the turn if I picked up a draw with my air.. check/fold if I didn't.

A very important concept that most people forget is:

IN TINY POTS WINNING BETS IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS WINNING THE POTS

Because of this reason playing small pots like this is VERY player speicifc because you are primarily trying to extract bets from them, as opposed to primarly protecting your hand.

Therefore in a small pot my lines could change drastically depending on who im playing against. However, in a bigger pot, my early lines would be pretty similar despite the players im against.

[thorleif]

a) c/c the flop, then c/r the turn. If flop action goes c,b,r then I c/r flop, lead turn. Our hand is v. strong and I think the best way to get value here is by inducing action. If the flop checks through I'll just lead the turn and hope they paired something.

b) I usually just play this b/b/b. If I get raised by CO at any point I just let it go. If BB raises I think we can call down unless board lines up perfectly.

c) I think this is the trickiest. yuck. nothing seems like a good option. I think you have to lead here, and c/f the turn UI? god...

d) meh i just give it up in a small pot?

e & f) idk what do you intend to do with these besides c/f or continue if you hit after it checks through? How did we get here with J6o [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Scary_Tiger]

[ QUOTE ]
most people hate threads where they have to write more than a word or two to respond

[/ QUOTE ]

[Point Blank]

hand A
IMO this is a really hard spot i could see both better out and checking ... betting out since we should be betting these flops a lot in the first place (and hope someone also has a little something on this board, which will get us some action)
and checking hoping someone else tries to steal the pot which gives us a chance to check raise (perhaps with someone in between) - in this spot we might get some good action from a much weaker hand as Hero doesn't necessarily need a set or two pair to check raise the flop

hand B
in small pots with ace with weaker kicker I've been checking hoping someone tries to steal the pot (my general line is c.c/c.c/bet ... or check and bet turn if checked around)
i don't think I'm giving too much up by not betting with only 2 guys in

hand C
i would bet out, really wanting others to fold (if called, would likely fold to a diamond on the turn, and sometimes check the turn anyways to let the other guy take a stab at it ... I think I would c.c the turn if I've been stealing a lot of these pots recently, as I figure I might get lighter calls like a small pp)

hand D
check-fold or bet ... depending on how often i've been betting this situation (if silent, I would lean towards a bet. I figure I can take it down a lot, I don't want to put anymore than one bet into the pot with this hand)

<font color="red">note: these next two hands are similar to this last hand ... I would bet them or check them depending on how I'm been playing this situation recently</font>

hand E
with one card higher then the second card on the board and a bdfd we have a decent hand to fall back on if called

hand F
sometimes betting is complete crap is just FUN [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]