Odds & Connectors

[KampfHase]

Hi there,

I'm a greenhorn in poker and play with some buds; makes us six players at the table.
My question is: given that I hold a connector like 89o. Do I have the odds to see the flop? Let's say I'm on the button and 3 players limped with $10. I am pretty sure that the SB and BB will not raise (weak-tight players). So, this would make it $10:$50 or 1:5 pot odds. Now, I read that the odds of flopping an open-ended straight draw are 1:11 (is that correct?). This would still make it incorrect to call, right?
Question arising: Do you even give a damn about odds preflop with a hand like this, in this situation and position? I mean, if somebody raised in front of you, or if you were in early position not knowing whether someone will raise behind you, then this hand was a clear fold (if you play abc-poker).
Or do you say: Well, if I hit my open-ended straight I will have the odds to continue and even get paid off? That would make it a decision based on implied odds, right? But you have to be pretty sure that you will get those $60 from your 5 or less opponents after the flop (needing $110:$10 or 1:11 to break even).
So, playing connectors is the gambling part of the game, right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

True or false?

I have to admit that I read two books about poker theory, but I don't get the math of pre-flop decisions (and some other concepts, too) because I lack math talent and good advice (which I hope be given here).

Any advice greatly appreciated

KampfHase

[mutiger91]

You didn't say if you were playing limit or no limit. I'll leave out the math and give you the general idea.

In LHE, only play a hand like this in a multi-limped pot from position. You probably want to have 3-4 other people in the pot with you. (Don't see this much in 6-way action)

In NLHE, I would still only play this from position, but now I'm just looking to see a cheap flop. Unlike limit where expressed odds (what the pot is offering you now) dominates your decision, NLHE is about implied odds. If I pick up something like this and the stacks are large or very large relative to the blinds (or the bet size if it has been raised), I'm more likely to play, because the payday can be very large if I can get the other guy to commit his stack.

Also, be careful about how you play your draw on the flop if you are open-ended. If there are 2 suited cards, you only have 6 clean outs, not 8. If there are 3, just run away.

In either case, unsuited connectors are a pretty weak hand and you only want to play them when you think you can take a large pot

[KampfHase]

Thanks for the reply! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
We play No-limit. Forgot to mention it, sorry.

So, you rarely play 9-and-below-connectors in a shorthanded game like this one here?
I mean, when I think of 10 player tables, there are rarely more than 6 limpers... even more rarely when you take in account that at least one of 10 will raise preflop making it more likely 4 players or less to see the flop...

Ok, let's take the example I gave above:
Average stack size: $500
Players: 6
Position: Button
BB: $10
Hand: connector T and below (assuming T9o or 89s)
3 limpers to the Button. Call? or fold?
I think, if someone raised in early position or something like that, I would fold it. But if I'm pretty sure the blinds will not raise and that I will get 2 callers after the flop if I hit my open-ended, should I call?

Then again, I think it's best to play small-pot-hand likes pocket pairs and AK,AQ,AJ, KQ and the like when six-handed, right? Because you are not likely to be able to built a large pot with drawing hands like 89s or 9To post-flop and get your hands on the $500 stacks, that right?

[mutiger91]

Didn't say that at all. I said I wouldn't play them much in LHE. NLHE is a different animal.

In the situation you outlined, you are getting implied odds of better than 50:1. (50:1 fromt the total of 1 person's stack plus the money already in the pot). I love connectors in situations like this. If you play your position well, you may not even need to hit anything. But what you want to have a str8 against a set.

Doyle Brunson talks about playing connectors in Supersystem. Next time you are near a book store, go grab it and scan that section. Then tone it way down from the way Doyle plays (unless you read as well as Doyle does). I've tried to do it his way and just tend to lose a lot.

Just remember that you aren't playing these to chase a pair, so make sure you don't spend more money if the flop doesn't give you a good draw or 2-pair.

[mutiger91]

I left out the short-handed part in my answer. I think the implied odds override here, but I much prefer full tables, so I'm not your best source. If I were playing, it would depend on how well I could read the other players. If they were weak players, I'm inclined to play more pots with them. If they are strong, I want to bring a bigger hand to battle.

[LadyWrestler]

I would throw 89o away, preflop, period. I think I would voluntarily play that hand preflop only...in no-limit cash, if I was in the small blind, with many limpers in front of me, and the big blind was almost a lock not to raise. Even then, if I threw it away I don't think it would cost me much (if anything) over the long haul.

[KampfHase]

Thanks again for your explanations.
I was quite confused when to play connectors like this because I felt like I rarely hit anything to go on with finding myself asking whether it was correct to limp in in the first place in a short-handed game.

So, to summarize: it's worth playing connectors (in NLH) if you have the implied odds and preferably a good position. Additionally, if you know your opponents well and have some read on them (which is always a bonus). Did I get that right?

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
I would throw 89o away, preflop, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got to agree with the large, muscular lady. I toss 89o preflop.

With 89s I limp from middle position on a passive table, but fold if I think it's likely I will be raised. And I always fold from MP when my limp gets raised from LP or the Button. You can call a raise from the blinds, but remember the Rule of 5 & 10.

From LP I raise with these hands if it's folded or limped to me, with the intention of c-betting 90% of the time. I'll call a raise from an earlier position, but again remember the Rule of 5 & 10.

Also remember that when in position and calling a raise with these hands that both you and the raiser should have at least 75bb, and 100bb each is better. If the raiser is short stacked then muck because he isn't offering enough implied odds for your call to be profitable in the long run, even if you happen to flop a monster. And if you are short stacked, then you shouldn't be playing speculative hands like this in the first place.

[KampfHase]

Thanks, man.

Er, what is the rule of 5 and 10? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[phydaux]

From the SSNL FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
Q: I've heard other posters mentioning the 5/10 rule. What is it?

A: The 5/10 rule is an important no-limit concept that first appeared in Bob Ciaffone's excellent book, "PL & NL Poker." To quote directly from the book:

"When contemplating calling a raise because your position is good, you have a clear call if the raise is less than 5% of your stack, and a clear fold if it is more than 10%. In between those numbers, use your judgement."

It's a good rule for calling a preflop raise with a pocket pair in hopes of hitting a set. The driving force behind the concept is the implied odds in a given situation. If you get your set, but the opponent only has 5BBs after the initial raise, calling to hit the set in the first place is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]