Theory question: check-raised on the river

[milesdyson]

i'm saying only the top pair hands. could you not filter out to only analyze the hands where you have top pair and were checkraised on the river?

that's what i'm talking about. if you're just going by every hand you call a c/r with, then i don't think you're going to get anything meaningful from looking at it actually.

needs to be filtered to one pair hands. i went back and reread where he said what he said and i don't get what he's talking about. the first line of the thread is

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you could look at every hand you ever played where you were check-raised on the river and you called holding one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

...?

[sethypooh21]

Does "top pair" include hands where you hold KK and the board pairs?

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't get what he's talking about. the first line of the thread is

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you could look at every hand you ever played where you were check-raised on the river and you called holding one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

...?

[/ QUOTE ]

The number I've been looking at is exactly that: your hand at the river is one pair, however it's made (pocket pair, or pair on board, or one of your cards matching one of the board cards) and you (or actually I) get check-raised and decide to call.

I'm only just getting to grips with these SQL queries and pokertracker's db isn't organised in the most helpful manner for this kind of thing, but with any luck I will be able to put together a better query, looking for e.g. top pair or an overpair. I think that will require some actual programming which I am not in the mood for right now.

Guy.

[jba]

guy feel free to bounce ideas off of me I've done a lot of spelunking in the pt database. but it was a long time ago. I think most of the stuff you are talking about can be done with straight sql.

[yourface]

holla at me if you figure it out. I am going to try to figure out how to query that as well.

from my brief look at the SQL forum at PT.com it looks like it will definately require programming.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
i think we all call these too much and our actual # is more like 5%.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft--mine might be more like 3-4% lol and I'm very interested at what some of the better/rational players like Guy are getting.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think we all call these too much and our actual # is more like 5%.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft--mine might be more like 3-4% lol and I'm very interested at what some of the better/rational players like Guy are getting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm not sure where you get that from. I suck very bad at limit hold'em.

Okay, the reason for the post was this. I made a query on my db for hands where I'd been check-raised and I'd called, just to see how I was doing. The plan was to compare with pot size and so on, to see if I call too light or threebet too little or what, but then I got distracted as you will soon see.

I organised the output by the final hand I was holding, since that's one thing the PT database gives you easy access to. I don't have the numbers with me, but the thing that freaked me out was that in my entire db, the number of times I had won against this line with one pair at the river was zero.

It's only an 80k hand sample, and there were only 53 trials where I had one pair and called the c/r, but to win exactly none of them surprised me quite a bit.

From knowing how I play, I would imagine almost all of these hands are top pair, or were top pair on the flop, or overpairs. Or tilt.

Guy.

[sweetjazz]

Guy, if you had folded all 53 times instead of calling, your WR would increase by 0.07 BB/100. That's assuming you didn't let any of those folds affect your future play, and that you didn't lose EV because an observant opponent exploited your river folds.

I think this an interesting theoretical discussion, but it's worthwhile to keep things in perspective.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
Guy, if you had folded all 53 times instead of calling, your WR would increase by 0.07 BB/100. That's assuming you didn't let any of those folds affect your future play, and that you didn't lose EV because an observant opponent exploited your river folds.

I think this an interesting theoretical discussion, but it's worthwhile to keep things in perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting, and surprising. Not once in 80k hands were you VBing AK hi, and caught the river A and gotten C/R ed by A7?

In any event, far more intriguing to me is times when you had TP or better and got C/R'ed by the board pairing on the river.

[vmacosta]

Guy, how many times did you 3b the river and how often did you win there?