Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone

[RedGladiator]

I have just finished reading this book and was very disappointed. I started reading it last summer and it has taken me uptil now to finish it because i keeped putting it down and picking up other books. I've read 3 other books in between reading PL&NLP.
Before reading the book I read some reviews and was determined to read the whole book and not just the hold em sections. I mananged to read the Holdem omaha and 7cs sections. But in the end I found my self skipping over the chapters I don;t play just to finish the book quicker.

[WaterMan4]

This book has helped me, probably more than any other single book. I'm sure it's paid for itself hundreds of times over.

Sorry it didn't work for you.

[CurryLover]

This is a brilliant book. Every month or two someone posts about how it's not that good etc. Sometimes they say that it is all very basic information that might help a beginner, but that most other players will already know everything that it discusses! Nothing could be further from the truth. I think these people just haven't read it properly, and haven't understood the depth of ideas and concepts lurking beneath the surface of the text. It is possible that you have to reach a certain standard of play before you see that the book is actually rather deep.

And you've got to read THE WHOLE BOOK, not just the sections on Hold'em. Many of the important big bet concepts are outlined in chapters on, for example, London Lowball. These concepts are applicable to Hold'em too, even if they do not appear in as pure a form. If all you've done is read the Hold'em sections through once and maybe skimmed some of the other chapters then you are not placed to judge this book.

Mind you, I think the Hold'em sections are really good anyway. Ciaffone's chapter discussing starting hands is superb and is one of the best things written about the relative values of starting hands in NL/PL vs Limit. And there are some great discussions of how stack size and position can affect the play of a hand.

Ok, there are now other good books out that deal with big bet poker. And some important concepts and ideas are discussed more clearly or in more depth in these more recent books. And it is not perfectly written (Reuben has a unique style which is a little irritating to most people I imagine). However, there is a lot of meat in this book. You just may have to suck some of it from the bones.

Read it again. It must be one of the ten best books written on poker, and probably one of the very few truly exceptional books written on big bet cash game play.

[CurryLover]

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping for more insight into starting hands and play after the flop than "scoot it all into the middle".

[/ QUOTE ]

What!!

Some of the discuss in of later street play is extremely advanced. The "scoot it all into the middle" quote is from a section of the book in which Ciaffone is addressing the structural differences between PL and NL Hold'em. More particularly he is discussing how drawing hands can sometimes be much harder to play in (deep stacked) PL games, as opposed to NL games. What he's saying is that even premium draws (e.g. straight flush draw with 2 overcards) are often difficult to play in deep-stacked Pot Limit if you are unable to get all your money in on the flop, since - assuming you miss on the turn - you will be out of position with only one card to come, and your hand loses a lot of value. He is saying that this contrasts with NL because in NL you can, if you choose, simply get your whole stack in on the flop with your premium draw - probably through a check-raise push (this is where the phrase "scoot your stack to the middle is used").

What he is actually doing here is trying to get to the very essence of one of the crucial differences between Pot Limit and No Limit. One reason that many people consider PL to be a more skillful game than NL is precisely because of structural differences like this.

If all you took from this section is that Ciaffone talks about pushing your whole stack in on the flop then I am afraid you have missed the whole point of the discussion. But also, this is just one little section. There is a great deal of discussion of post flop/later street strategy throughout the book, and the "scoot your stack to the middle" phrase in used only once, in one particular section.

As regards your wish for "more insight into starting hands", I think this is rather unfair. Ciaffone has a brilliant little section on starting hands in PL/NL. He uses a discussion of how the value of starting hands changes in PL/NL when compared to Limit as a means to discuss what different starting hands are hoping to 'build'. I thought this section was really well written. But also, remember that starting hand selection is much less important in (deep stacked) big bet poker. If you hoped for tables of starting hands a la Sklanky's LIMIT hand groups then you are thinking about NLHE in the wrong way.

[jqmaverick]

Forget this book, get NLHET&P instead.

The book assumes you are familar with all the games mentioned in the book. Some of the poker terms used on these games will be lost on many, and there is no glossery for those who have yet to come across these terms.

IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

With all the books now availble or the 2+2 NLHE cash games books soon to be availble, this book will become largely redundent.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
Forget this book, get NLHET&P instead.

The book assumes you are familar with all the games mentioned in the book. Some of the poker terms used on these games will be lost on many, and there is no glossery for those who have yet to come across these terms.

IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

With all the books now availble or the 2+2 NLHE cash games books soon to be availble, this book will become largely redundent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I partially agree, and partially disagree.

NLH:T&P is an introductory to intermediate book. Pot odds, starting hand selection, playing the nuts & how to try and stack people etc. It also has a lot of bugs that stem from the fact that Ed and DS can't play NL worth [censored].

PL&NLP is an advanced book - providing directly applicable real-world advice to the advanced player from an advanced player. The only problem is that Ciaffone's co-author (Ruben or however he spells it) is an idiot. That aside, the info here is infinitely more valuable than that in NLH:T&P because it's actually correct. But you have to have a good grasp of the games in question to get at the meat of the book. So beginners read it and come away confused and then come bash it on 2+2. Sort of like how they respond to Doyle's stuff.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe your observation is valid. A beginer might not grasp the difficult concepts and an expert player might already understand them. However, I would hazard to guess almost every player at some point is in the no-mans land in between and this book might help them break through.

I experienced several "a ha" moments when reading the book and still consider it one of the 2 best books for NLHE players. (The other being HoH1.)

[6471849653]

There are lots of people who say PLNLP is great, many highly recommend it, so it will be good for most I think. Personally, I think it's very ABC, not worth to get (it has a couple of pages about nl-holdem, mainly about how he thinks one should play draws at nl-holdem, so maybe some intermediate to advanced player may get something out of it, though not likely these days); I recommend not to get it.

NLHTP is a great book of NL holdem theory, the information has been learned well that's out there, and that too shows. No ABC-book. One problem (if not counting what it does not contain) is the often poor text of how to play vs. tight or timid opponents. Then, of course, it could be more a how-to-book (I like those, when they are reasoned too, some good player putting on paper of how he plays and why, and one can read several books like that, sure helps even if one will never play like any one of them) but it's mainly about theory, but that's what it was made for and not to contain the whole world.

[dthf90210]

I had heard rumor that Ciaffone was working on a book specific to NLH. Can anyone confirm this, and when it might release? Hopefully this new book won't get into discussions about London Lowball, etc.

[Shandrax]

The book fails to explain the concepts of NL and PL in a rather obvious way:

A. It doesn't cover betting schemes. It doesn't tell you when (and why) to make a min-raise, when to bet half the pot, when to bet 2/3, potsize or all-in.

B. It doesn't explain the difference in pre-flop selection between NL and PL.

Last but not least, it's not a book in the traditional sense, it's a collection of essays.