Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr

[il_martilo]

xiticator, you don't seem to understand what a weak lead is.

A WEAK LEAD is not a donk bet.

A weak lead CAN be a donk bet, but isn't necessarily. A weak lead is a play used OOP, usually used to induce a bluff raise out of an aggressive opponent.

A donk bet just means betting into a PFR or the bettor on the last street from OOP.

[munkey]

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Whats your way around idiots like me who donk everything. I donk middle pairs. I donk sets. I donk air. I even donk draws. Bottom line, I rarely call OOP, but if I did, I donk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I 'think' know how to defend vs this at least I think I do only because I do it too and 'rarely' c/r. Basically I tryto abuse my position vs you to control pot/hand read - i will also raise/call and fold with all types of hands. Though in reality I rather play with the fishies than you corsakh [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

(Though I agree having a mixed range does make it more deceptive and harder)

Also what ama said about stacksizes applies -there range is wider -sometimes I overbet shove flop by a few $ -basically what Gelford once said -play the shorties game AI preflop/flop if possible.

Vs normal stacks I don't really have a general donk bet handling strategy though IMHO the minbet I raise they minraise 3bet is almost always a monster.

[bozzer]

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I don't understand why you are raising the first hand. I think you do better by getting more value from worse made hands than by bluffing better made hands.

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yeah i def though this too. Raising donks every time it´s the first time is a huge leak!

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i actually meant the first hand example given where we have AT on a QT6 flop or something, and apparently his donk means weak made hand. Hmmm a call smells really good here unless he has literally loads of queens that he will be folding to your raise.

[Ricky_Bobby]

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

[corsakh]

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Whats your way around idiots like me who donk everything. I donk middle pairs. I donk sets. I donk air. I even donk draws. Bottom line, I rarely call OOP, but if I did, I donk

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Why do you do this though? Dont you feel you are giving up on some free continuation bets? I think a c/r definitely has a place in my game. If someone c-bets a ton I can c/r bluff them and take down the c-bet that I never would have gotten by donking into them. Not to mention, when you donk with hands like mid pair, you cant stand a raise. I would think donks should be very polarized, either to steal cheaper than a c/r would, or to get value on big hands, nothing in between like mid pair.

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Value in c/r? There is no value in c/r.

When I have a monster I dont want a cbet, I want a stack. Its such a waste to fold out TP with a set on the flop.

When I have a mediocre hand, why would I turn it into a bluff? OOP?

C/r with air - fine. But how to balance this. And why not simply 3bet preflop instead of giving free cards.

[Profish2285]

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Value in c/r? There is no value in c/r.

When I have a monster I dont want a cbet, I want a stack. Its such a waste to fold out TP with a set on the flop.

When I have a mediocre hand, why would I turn it into a bluff? OOP?

C/r with air - fine. But how to balance this. And why not simply 3bet preflop instead of giving free cards.

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The c/r with air works quite well but you obviously have to balance it. I agree about the set thing, I pretty much always lead with a set, but I dont think I would lead with mid pair. I dont see the value in it. If you get raised, you have to fold. How do you react to a raise from an unknown when you donk top pair? If you fold too often then you have to stop donking unless you have a monster. Im just curious how you played the medium strength hands when you donk and get raised. Or if you donk middle pair and get called, what do you don on a turn blank?

[corsakh]

Depends who raises me, one thing if its some passive fishy, another thing someone who does not know me well and I suspect raises ATC.

[Paul Thomson]

i just call in both examples.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
A WEAK LEAD is not a donk bet.

A weak lead CAN be a donk bet, but isn't necessarily. A weak lead is a play used OOP, usually used to induce a bluff raise out of an aggressive opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]Most people don't use it this way though. They just throw out a 3/4 bet OOP on the flop in an attempt to get you TO CALL instead of induce a raise. Standard opponents with a strong hand is infinitely more likely to either check/minraise flop or call, check/raise turn.

I'm trying to find better examples but it really doesn't happen that often. Like, so infrequently that if you never bothered to do it, wouldn't matter. It helps you win a few small pots every couple sessions. I know most of you advocate letting them have small victories but I don't, pounce on every opportunity.

What to do on turn called? This depends on reads. Sometimes double barrell and sometimes give up.

edit: Against a 22/18/3 TAG obv fold nothing. Same with maniacs. Don't try to bluff them out. I'm taking about weak tag's that don't steal or semi-loose passives. This play is entirely specific to a set of opponents. The ones you should be playing imo.

double edit: In my first example the problem with calling is opponent is going to fire again with a Ten. You can't profitably call down. If you can get a weak Queen to fold by raising, you score a major victory. I hate calling in that spot.

[Paul Thomson]

Hey OP:

You should raise for one of two reasons:
1: to get a better hand to fold or
2: to get a worse hand to call.

I'm not sure which you're doing in both examples. Both boards are dry, you're in position, you have mediocre to good hands.

Hand 1: call. you can always call a 2nd barrel or fold to a turn bet. I don't think you're folding a queen to often.

Hand 2: you have the nuts here. Why are you trying to get him to fold. call the flop and raise the turn.