Preflop odds to play speculative hands such as K3s

[curious123]

Firstly let me say I think you guys (Gonso and POF) are pretty good posters. But your cases are weak here. Try looking at this spot quantitatively, it's not that hard to return a mere sb. Just don't be so damn nitty.

[PantsOnFire]

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Firstly let me say I think you guys (Gonso and POF) are pretty good posters. But your cases are weak here. Try looking at this spot quantitatively, it's not that hard to return a mere sb. Just don't be so damn nitty.

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Thanks for your comments but nitty=successful.

Also, my advice is usually generic for the simple reason that we don't have all day to cover the various scenarios. For example, I would mostly fold a hand like K3s in the SB but I would play it in certain situations and/or against certain players.

It also happens that the SB was an area I have been working on for the last several months. I now actually show a profit from the SB (before cost of posting) in MTT play.

[KCW12]

I used to limp almost any two cards from the SB if the pot was not raised and there was at least one limper (I play mostly STTs). After following some advice in the STT forum, I've started throwing away junk like K3, etc. even when getting good odds, and I think my results have improved because of it. Now, the only hands I will limp from the SB that I wouldn't play normally are small pairs, suited connectors and one-gappers, Ax suited, and occasionally any two broadway cards.

[Gonso]

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Firstly let me say I think you guys (Gonso and POF) are pretty good posters. But your cases are weak here. Try looking at this spot quantitatively, it's not that hard to return a mere sb. Just don't be so damn nitty.

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Can you expand on this a little bit? 'Hey, I'll just complete the SB because it's so cheap' isn't really quantitative. Second, if you feel it's nitty, fine. Perhaps my occasional raise with this hand suits you better?

And to clarify, it's not the cost of completing the SB that concerns me. It's the additional cost of the having to play a suited trash hand OOP, especially when you make a marginal second-best hand as these kind of hands tend to do.

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When talking about playing speculative hands, I often read about needinh a certain number of callers/limpers to play hands such as K3s or 67s

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76s suited plays immensely better than K3s does, and is actually a decent hand to call or 3-bet with here. It's harder to be dominated, and you can hit a flop pretty hand with a hand like this.

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I'm trying to sort this out. There have been several times recently when in a micro limpament I've been getting huge odds (10-1 or better) with a weak hand, and I'm trying to figure out if at some point the odds force a call with certain hands.

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You can quantify this if the call were for all of your chips, but when talking about regular sized stacks you have to take playability into consideration to call. Tougher players will make it harder for you to extract value of of anything you make.

[jay_shark]

If your hand isn't strong enough to raise in the small blind , then it probably should be dumped .

It's a limped pot so even if you hit your flush (almost never) , you aren't likely to win a monster pot anyway . Two-thirds of the time , your hole cards do not pair the board and you'll be forced to give up the pot (unless you occasionally bluff) . When you do hit about one-third of the time , you'll have to put more money into the pot to find out if it's best .

So your true odds are not really 5:1 . It may be something like 5:2 or 5:3 .

[El_Hombre_Grande]

I think the only reason to play a hand like K3s from the small blind is if you can get in for the 1/2 bet AND there are two players in the hand who will probably go broke if you hit a monster. I feel like OOP with a hand that you will almost never hit without fear of being dominated is just pretty close to worthless. But at NL, especially 6 man, sometimes you find players who will give you massive implied odds. I'm not talking about a run of the mill fish who is too loose; I'm talking about someone who can't and won't lay KJ or a FD down on a K3379 board for stacks after you check the flop. Those players are increasingly hard to find, so this hand (no matter what the pot odds) is pretty much always going in the muck.

If you think about it, even when you hit two pr OOP you are so vulnerable to pure bluffs. There are always going to be cards on the board that are scary to yr two pr, and when a solid TAG bets big your going to be in a pickle even when you hit your hand hard. If you watch how the poor players go broke, its often when they tagged alond with with a dumb hand (thinking "pot odds, I can call a small raise), hit 2 pr, and assume that the solid reg doesn't read it for two pair, but the solid reg has a set when the money goes in, so he really doesn't care which Bingo hand the SB played.

[Gonso]

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If your hand isn't strong enough to raise in the small blind, then it probably should be dumped

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Jayshark's comment here sums it up better than I can.

If you're calling out of position with trash (against several opponents), you're pretty much putting yourself at every disadvantage there is in the game. Against good players you're not going to be able to overcome it for a profit.

Of course there are exceptions; there are times when playing any two cards can be profitable when it comes to weak players can be bullied after the flop... but then I'm sure they're easier to bully when you have decent position as well.

Also, remember we're talking about K3s... a lot of other speculative hands have a lot more value. Small pairs and connectors are way ahead of K3.

[futuredoc85]

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If your hand isn't strong enough to raise in the small blind, then it probably should be dumped

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Jayshark's comment here sums it up better than I can.

If you're calling out of position with trash (against several opponents), you're pretty much putting yourself at every disadvantage there is in the game. Against good players you're not going to be able to overcome it for a profit.

Of course there are exceptions; there are times when playing any two cards can be profitable when it comes to weak players can be bullied after the flop... but then I'm sure they're easier to bully when you have decent position as well.

Also, remember we're talking about K3s... a lot of other speculative hands have a lot more value. Small pairs and connectors are way ahead of K3.

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gonso, what tournament have you ever played in where most of the players at your table arent terrible early in the game when these situations come up? I pretty much only play $200+ major tournaments at this point and im v. v. v. rarely at a table full of good players. I do agree though that in a tourney stacks are obv shorter than cash so folding is more of an option but 100bbs deep i dont really think its close if there are multiple limpers already.