So you know im showing down, but your still betting... Hmmm..

Heisenb3rg · #1 09-26-2007, 04:04 AM

Im sure you all know this situation...

Your against a regular , solid hand reading player.
You have a weak made hand
you play it passivly
you would have played all your draws agressivly so its unlikely you are on one.
they bet the river, and your getting like 6-7 to 1.

If you know the player is solid how often do you guys fold?
I pretty much always call (occasionally fold).. But I wonder if this is a leak in my game since im pretty much never shown a bluff?

How do you guys approach these scenarios? Clearly always folding is terrible... But I guess so is always calling.

An examplee

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7.25BB

PokerBob · #2 09-26-2007, 04:22 AM

contrary to what most others will tell you, it is ok to fold here.

Nietzsche · #3 09-26-2007, 04:35 AM

"Solid hand reader" isn't enough in a spot like this. People play blind battles so diffeently that you need history between the two of you in this situation to determine the best play.
I know a lot of players at the higher stakes that I would need to call against here, but also some that a fold is quite clearly the right play.

TheWunderkind · #4 09-26-2007, 04:40 AM

When u think this youre usally beat. Next Time u have to call though.
You can also call here and fold the next Time.

Carmine · #5 09-26-2007, 05:30 AM

I usually try to consider my image at the moment and not just from previous steal situations but the entire session. If previous situations caused me to call down light and pay off value bets then it's time to fold. When I've had to lay down my hand several times after being the aggressor it's time to call.

When it's early in the session these situations create your image so I call/fold/raise as I decide how I want to play that session. Basically I don't think it's so important what you do right now but rather how you use what you did right now in the future.

I really don't like the call now fold next time approach. What happens when you call at all the wrong times and fold at all the wrong times (of course this can work great when you make the correct 50/50 decsions..lol). I'd rather have some method to my maddness or at least think I do.

TheWunderkind · #6 09-26-2007, 05:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I really don't like the call now fold next time approach. What happens when you call at all the wrong times and fold at all the wrong times (of course this can work great when you make the correct 50/50 decsions..lol). I'd rather have some method to my maddness or at least think I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

But thats exactly what you posted, if you call here with A8 your image is showdowny so its unliekyl youll get bluffed form a decent player the next time cause he has to assume its unlikely you fold a sd value hand.

What happens when u fold and call the wrong Times is that youre getting unlucky but theoretical its just more likely that you will not get bluffed if you showdown very light before i dont know why you think its bad.

PokerBob · #7 09-26-2007, 05:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually try to consider my image at the moment and not just from previous steal situations but the entire session. If previous situations caused me to call down light and pay off value bets then it's time to fold. When I've had to lay down my hand several times after being the aggressor it's time to call.

When it's early in the session these situations create your image so I call/fold/raise as I decide how I want to play that session. Basically I don't think it's so important what you do right now but rather how you use what you did right now in the future.

I really don't like the call now fold next time approach. What happens when you call at all the wrong times and fold at all the wrong times (of course this can work great when you make the correct 50/50 decsions..lol). I'd rather have some method to my maddness or at least think I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw i would likely call here if it was early in the session. i want him to know that i called him with nothing, so he better not try bluffing me.

vmacosta · #8 09-26-2007, 06:02 AM

nah, i'm becoming convinced more and more that you can fold in these spots. If I am villain I am betting like T8 and Aq or better. You don't come close to enough equity vs. that range. Of course there are times people will 3-barrel other draws, but they take a freebie on the turn just as often.

BTW-I historically have always called here too but my rosh hashanah (sp?) resolution was to fold enough that after each session I have at least one hand where I'm worried I made a bad fold in a non-tiny pot.

PokerBob · #9 09-26-2007, 06:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

BTW-my rosh hashanah (sp?) resolution was to fold enough that after each session I have at least one hand where I'm worried I made a bad fold in a non-tiny pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

mine was the exact opposite.

noles321 · #10 09-26-2007, 07:24 AM

Why not 3 bet preflop to avoid this position. Or worse yet donk the turn and fold to a raise. I often find myself in the same situation where I somehow am out of position check calling ace high with no clue. I am really trying to stop this as in the end it usually ends up spewing.