[LO8] Two Pair in HU-Pot

[Big Dave D]

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i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]And to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand. Moreover, when we miss a fit with the flop and would prefer to get out of a hand cheaply, having wasted an extra 0.50 big bet seems ill advised.

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Buzz, I don't know what you are missing here. Statistically, over the lifetime of your play, an A2 is worth less than the value of the blinds. Even a nice suited one. So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

In general, in limit games with blinds, it is very rare that a hand is worth more than the blinds. In holdem, it is basically just AA and maybe KK (memory fails on KK.) I would suspect that in Omaha, it is basically just good AAs. And it won't be anywhere like as crushing as the holdem example.

Also, I'm not sure why we are all using that Capelletti nomenclature now. That book was so terrible I almost burnt it.

gl

bdd

[Buzz]

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Statistically, over the lifetime of your play, an A2 is worth less than the value of the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Dave - You have the data and I believe you. I'm not always enamored of hands containing A2.

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Even a nice suited one.

[/ QUOTE ]This one is nice one. Not great, but nice.

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So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

[/ QUOTE ]But you cannot do that. And now the question is, how can you optimize your profit with this fine starting hand.

There are risks involved in both raising and limping. Raising has a greater risk of losing a potential customer (and also costs more up front). Limping has a greater risk of losing all or part of the pot and requires more card playing skill on later betting rounds.

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In general, in limit games with blinds, it is very rare that a hand is worth more than the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]I can see how you might interpret "to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand" to mean I think this hand is worth more than the blinds.

But that is not what it means.

There is a difference between collecting the blinds and attempting to win the blinds. Do you see the difference, now that I have pointed out there is one?

Assuming we do not fold, we are either
• (1) risking 1.00BB in an attempt (requiring less card playing skill to be successful) to win 0.75BB, or
• (2) risking 0.50BB in an attempt
(requiring more card playing skill to be successful) to win more than 0.75BB.

It's subtle, but hopefully you recognize that it's not a matter of trying to be more clever with words.<ul type="square"> "attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand" does not mean "this hand is worth more than the blinds."[/list]Buzz

[Big Dave D]

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So if you could, every time, trade that A2 into the Poker Gods for both the blinds, no hassle, then you should so that, every time.

[/ QUOTE ]But you cannot do that. And now the question is, how can you optimize your profit with this fine starting hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well actually, as it happens, in this case you can. You can raise and win the blinds.

I'm not sure how much sense there is to get into this any more. I'm no huge fan of raising A2s regardless anyway. But your expressed initial sentiment was, I felt, a little misleading. And I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye on just how important winning the blinds uncontested actually is. Considering how low win rates are in general in limit games, typically a couple of big bets an hour or 1-2 big bets/100 hands, just winning the blinds is a mighty coup.

gl

bdd

[Buzz]

Hi Big Dave - I think it's fine to disagree. I appreciate, as always, your well expressed point of view.

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But your expressed initial sentiment was, I felt, a little misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't mean it to be misleading. I agreed with your assessment (standard) - but then it seemed to me there might be a better way to play the hand.
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And I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye on just how important winning the blinds uncontested actually is.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree that we're not seeing eye to eye on this issue. Not at all.

If we're going to win the blinds uncontested, we might as well be holding 2-2-2-2 as A-2-T-J with the ace suited to the deuce. It would feel good to me to win the blinds uncontested with 2-2-2-2. Even with A-2-7-8-rainbow it would feel good winning the blinds. But with A-2-T-J-(suited ace) it would feel disappointing to not get more. We might not be able to get more with the A2TJ hand, but I would want to give it a try.

To be honest, I think sometimes (holding this hand) we would have a better chance to win more with a pre-flop raise. For example, if I thought a pre-flop raise would get me heads-up with a buffoon in the small blind who would defend his small blind, then (holding this hand) I would advocate raising before the flop.

But that's not the impression I had here.

Buzz

[sweetjazz]

Dave, what you're missing is that you win 0.5 BB/hand with A2xx, that amount is not even distributed over your opponent's range. In fact, if your opponent's have two hands that they would fold to a blind steal, you're likely to make more than 0.5 BB on average for that particular deal of the cards. Coversely, those times one your opponent has a legimiately playable hand in the blind (or worse on the button), you'll win less than 0.5 BB on average.

That's not to say there is not an argument to be made for raising before the flop. But you can't simply use average data and use that to decide when to raise before the flop. You have to consider what hands will be folding to a raise (and whether you want them to), how much equity edge you will have when called, whether your hand plays better with the pot bigger or smaller, whether it plays better with or without the initiative.

[Big Dave D]

Sweet,

As I've said in the thread, I do understand the other views and I'm not a prolific raiser of A2 as it goes. But what I was countering was the prima facie view of Buzz that "your starting hand is worth more than three bucks in a $2/$4 game."

Now the average value is just one factor in decision making, however my point was, if you could enter into a Mike Caro Genie-like scenario and were offered 0.75BB for every A2 then you should take it.

gl

bdd

[1MoreFish4U]

Me: 510,000 hands of LO8
any A2: 30,441 hands
any A2 Win % 52.53
PFR any A2: 42.43%
BB/hand 0.34
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