What Do You Do Different In Tourney & Cash Games?

[Jazezy]

Just curious I hear people say all the time they differentiate their play from cash games and tournaments. What do you do different in the two?

[greggg230]

In tournaments, you gain equity by other people busting - in cash games, you don't (directly--if a good player busts to a bad player, the fact that the bad player has more chips to lose increases your equity). This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament.

Also, a difference between the two is that once you go bust in a tournament, you're out (unless it's during the rebuy period of a rebuy tournament). This means that, if you are one of the better players, you have to give up situations which are +cEV (chip expected value), since they are not necessarily +$EV. Basically, going bust takes away your ability to make even higher +cEV decisions later. If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity. This is because if you go bust here, you lose the chance to get it all in with AA v. AQ, QQ v. TT, etc. later.

[Pokerfarian]

In the early stages of tourneys, you don't gain equity by other people busting.
You should not play tight & let the donks bust each other out, you should try to get their chips before other people do.
Very very rarely should you pass up +cEV situations, if you're one of the better players.
If you have QQ & someone pushes with AKo early in a tourney, you should call.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
In the early stages of tourneys, you don't gain equity by other people busting.
You should not play tight & let the donks bust each other out, you should try to get their chips before other people do.
Very very rarely should you pass up +cEV situations, if you're one of the better players.
If you have QQ & someone pushes with AKo early in a tourney, you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you do gain equity by other people busting. Let me prove it. You are in a 10 man SnG for $10+1 that pays 3 places 50/30/20 (standard).

At the start of the tourney, everybody has 1000 chips and $10 equity (assuming equal skill). Say that one maniac goes on a tear and eliminates 8 players leaving you heads up. He has 9000 chips and since you folded every hand you still have 1000 chips. What is your equity now? It can't be $10 because you are guaranteed second place which pays $30.

[PantsOnFire]

The difference between play and strategy is too vast to cover in a post. It takes an entire book.

However, here are some basic ideas that you can expand upon yourself. You can't buy back into a tourney. That means busting out has some meaning unlike a cash game. This fact that you can bust out or you can bust somebody else out affects strategy (again a big topic).

Another key concept is that the chips have varying equity unlike a cash game where the face value of a chip never changes. In general, the less chips you have, the more valuable they are to you. Again, this affects strategy (another big topic).

Thirdly, the blind levels increase in a tourney. Your play must account for this relative to how many chips you currently have and how many chips the other players have.

I didn't really give you an answer so maybe you could ask a more specific question.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best players in a tournament won't be playing super tight during the early rounds, they will be stealing pots from weak-tight nits by aggressively playing speculative hands in position, and then busting the loose-passive donks when they hit a big hand.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who folds QQ preflop to a suspected AK all-in is a losing player, much less one of the best in a tournament.

[Pokerfarian]

Was assuming MTTs from "Tourney". Yeah big difference between Cash & STTs. But other than adapting to opponents playing differently, there shouldn't be a big difference between MTTs & Cash.

[greggg230]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This means that it is generally correct to play tight during the early rounds while the donks bust each other out - IF you are the best or one of the best players in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best players in a tournament won't be playing super tight during the early rounds, they will be stealing pots from weak-tight nits by aggressively playing speculative hands in position, and then busting the loose-passive donks when they hit a big hand.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have pocket queens and someone pushes all-in with AKo, and you know they have AKo, it's generally correct to fold during the early stages of the tournament (again, if you're better than the competition), even though you have more than half the equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who folds QQ preflop to a suspected AK all-in is a losing player, much less one of the best in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you understand the difference between $eV and cEV?

I'm not advocating folding QQ regularly in tournaments, but that's because the range of hands people will push with is much wider than QQ+, AK.

You are only a 54% favorite with QQ against AK. If AK open-pushes in a tournament, and you're getting very close to 1:1, folding is unquestionably the correct move. It can even be correct if you're getting relatively better odds than those. I suggest reading Sklansky's book on tournament poker, where, I believe, he recommends this exact thing.

Let me put it this way: Do you agree that there are circumstances where you can have positive chip expectation, but not positive money expectation? That is, where you avoid marginally +cEV situations (such as races)? If you do, and exclude QQ v AK, how narrow does the margin need to be?

[PantsOnFire]

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But other than adapting to opponents playing differently, there shouldn't be a big difference between MTTs & Cash.

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[bluesbassman]

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Do you understand the difference between $eV and cEV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, of course. That's why ICM exists. I assumed in my response we were talking about the early rounds of a deep-stacked MTT, rather than an SnG. Your advice is more applicable to the latter.

[ QUOTE ]

You are only a 54% favorite with QQ against AK. If AK open-pushes in a tournament, and you're getting very close to 1:1, folding is unquestionably the correct move. It can even be correct if you're getting relatively better odds than those. I suggest reading Sklansky's book on tournament poker, where, I believe, he recommends this exact thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to verify this. I'd be surprised to find out he recommends folding QQ vs AK all-in preflop, except for (maybe) the very best players in the field.

[ QUOTE ]

Let me put it this way: Do you agree that there are circumstances where you can have positive chip expectation, but not positive money expectation? That is, where you avoid marginally +cEV situations (such as races)? If you do, and exclude QQ v AK, how narrow does the margin need to be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I understand the difference between cEV and $EV in a tournament. Nevertheless, I claim that even small edges should be pushed in the early rounds of a deep stacked MTT (in other words, I claim that such play is in fact +$EV). However, that is still "tight" preflop compared to cash game play. Surviving to the bubble is important in STTs.