How do you play the flop and turn against a good opponent?

[southerndog]

Troll, what are you putting him on with the check raise, and what do you think he is putting you on with your call of the check raise?

[iggymcfly]

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I think this is a good tricky line against an aggressive player. You're weak lead on the flop totally tricked me as I decided you had to have a weak draw and made a C/R whereas I could have easily folded to a pot-sized bet.

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i think this is such an underused play - it has the advantage over pot bets of appearing like a weak bet, plus if you make this 2/3 pot bet when you miss you take down just as may pots as a PSB, but save that extra 1/3 when you get called/reraised

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The reason it doesn't work is that so many players play overly passive. The number of players who will check without the intent to check/raise and then check/raise because they sense weakness is less than 10%. Most players only like raising when they have sets or huge draws and the rest of the time will just passively call along until they make a big hand.

[Aisthesis]

I like potting it here (haven't read the remainder of the thread yet). I've also been working lately on exactly this line with top set and am liking it so far--specifically with position on suited boards with draws that can in principle be ahead of top set.

Basically, in this situation it's bluffing with outs. It's very difficult to do anything in EP without the nut flush, and any straight draw (to which you're still vulnerable) absolutely MUST go away.

One additional note: I also like combining this with keeping a lot of junky A suited hands in LP for a limp (not relevant here since you raised) and also a lot of less strong 3 card wraps with big flush draws (Q456 suited to Q, K456 suited to K, etc.). And I've been playing those pretty much the same way. I feel like this gives you a lot of options and flexibility with position.

And, if I push here with position, I have a monster--like AA with at least big flush redraw (preferably to K on this board) or AKQJ with hearts to the K, which should be ahead of anything, although it's also nice to fold out TT (or AA) and win a decent pot 100% even though you're favorite against both of those.

[Aisthesis]

I'm also not excited about the weak lead here, particularly on this kind of board.

First, for meta-game reasons: I'd like to have some fold equity when I have something like A9JQ or something in the wrong suit or any number of other hands with which I'll bluff at this pot. I don't mind leading for maybe $15 in a pot of $18, but $10 seems REALLY weak. And, the way Stars is these days, there aren't so many PLO players that they won't eventually catch on if you do this routinely.

Secondly, if they do, calling on thin draws becomes an option for them with the intention of bluffing a turn that has very few blanks--really only offsuit 2 through 5.

I would be interested in hearing more about your comment that you sacrifice your position if you bet that heart turn. I think it's an excellent bluffing spot, really, the way the the hand has played out.

But admittedly, I do get CRed here occasionally... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[CrushinFelt]

I'm still in the camp of saying the flop is terrible to call this. There are SO few turn cards that you like. All you're doing is turning your hand into a bluff-catcher which is nuts. 3-bet that flop, and the fact that a 3-bet allows him to put you on aces means you aren't 3-betting enough in general.

[Aisthesis]

Well, it depends a bit on just how game iggy is, but looking at stack depth, this makes for a tough situation on the turn if iggy calls, as imo he should with any decent wrap (789 or KQJ) with or without hearts, because it's extremely unlikely for troll to have hearts once he's "shown" his AA.

There was $24, I think in the original pot, so 3betting here makes it $144 with $300 left to play with. So, the turn pot on a call would be $310 or so and there are very few blanks. Admittedly, AA can still call pot on any spade, regardless of whether a straight is repped or not.

That leaves as good turns: 2-5 offsuit (12), A, T or 6 (7) and then another 6 higher spades. Well, I guess that's 25 "good turns" (mainly due to the spade possibility). So, I guess that is enough.

I still think you sacrifice some ability to outplay your opponent with position by raising here. OOP, I'm happy to get it all in every time with top set, but with position, I think one may be able to do better making a lot of flat calls, keeping your hand disguised and being willing to bluff.

The main thing is that I think with a strong image, you have chances of making him lay down good draws that HIT! (specifically non-nut hearts and certainly a straight that's significantly ahead on the turn but hit together with the flush)

Anyhow, the raise to some extent (because for me it would at least make it more likely that I have AA rather than specifically a 789 wrap with hearts or a JQK wrap with hearts) but mainly the probe bet changes things somewhat.

But if we can change it a little just to have iggy bet out pot. Now let's say you flat call with AA. iggy can now easily make a mistake on the turn by betting again with TT or AT on a blank. And now I may or may not raise, but he in any case is prone to lose more on 2 hands that are drawing near dead. The thing is, the raise kills the hands you want in while leaving the hands in that you want to go away.

Now, playing not with open cards but with open hand ranges, here's what I can have: 1) AA, 2) nut hearts of some kind, 3) a wrap with non-nut hearts. I'd just guess that the probabilities here (although iggy of course knows his own hand, and hence can narrow this down if he has Kh) are maybe 30% AA, 40% nut heart draw, 30% wrap with non-nut hearts.

That should make it a bad call on the turn if it's a heart, I bet, and he doesn't have nut hearts: If he just has some hearts, he's drawing completely dead more than half the time (roughly 60%), then the other 40% or so, he wins 75%, so he's 70-30 underdog on that range.

Assuming he bets into a heart on the turn, I call again (I think--here, I'm interested in hearing any improvement suggestions), I think I call again with all of the above if my heart is maybe 9 or better (possibly too liberal, maybe just to Q). Then the river depends a lot on reads. I'll obviously definitely bet overfulls or nut flush (maybe full pot, maybe half), but I may or may not do the same on losers, depending on what I think his attitude toward calling or folding is.

[Troll_Inc]

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Troll, what are you putting him on with the check raise, and what do you think he is putting you on with your call of the check raise?

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On the flop with my c-bet, I think I allowed him to have a pretty big range to check raise with. I think he would do this with any set or two pair and also of course a bluff representing the same.

By me calling it, I was hoping that we would put me on a draw. The best case scenario would then be a blank on the turn, he would be more likely to bet since the draw was missed.

The turn -
Of course there were a lot of draws that hit and I should probably have called any bet by him on the turn or bet myself. I recall vividly when the turn hit though the thought that maybe we had completely switched hands and he had the draw...and therefore if I bet it he was either going to fold or checkraise the turn...so I chickened out and checked behind.

Playing against good opponents = so much more but so much less profitable......

[Ribbo]

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Troll, what are you putting him on with the check raise, and what do you think he is putting you on with your call of the check raise?

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On the flop with my c-bet, I think I allowed him to have a pretty big range to check raise with. I think he would do this with any set or two pair and also of course a bluff representing the same.

By me calling it, I was hoping that we would put me on a draw. The best case scenario would then be a blank on the turn, he would be more likely to bet since the draw was missed.

The turn -
Of course there were a lot of draws that hit and I should probably have called any bet by him on the turn or bet myself. I recall vividly when the turn hit though the thought that maybe we had completely switched hands and he had the draw...and therefore if I bet it he was either going to fold or checkraise the turn...so I chickened out and checked behind.

Playing against good opponents = so much more but so much less profitable......

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As it turned out, you were almost flipping a coin to bust each other. Iggy hits a gutshot, you both felt, Iggy hits his under full house, you both felt.