$25 OOP, standard?

JoeAbrams · #1 08-08-2007, 01:37 PM

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($25.80)
Button ($22.80)
SB ($4.15)
BB ($26.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $0.85, Button calls $0.85, 1 fold, BB calls $0.60.

Flop: ($2.65) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $2.55, Hero raises to $10.2, Button folds, BB raises to $25.95, Hero calls $14.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($52.55) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($52.55) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $52.55

Anything you guys would do differently? Am I right to assume I have to push the flop here to get the $ in now?

If you know 100% he has a set, does it change things? I figure his range could be as low as pushing an inferior draw, is that a bad assumption?

Is this a hand you played OOP in PLO all the time? Do you always raise it or would you ever limp? is it strong enough to limp / re-raise? or would isolating without a big pair be bad?

I'm sure this would change if it was a full 9/10 handed table? would you even play this hand in a full ring game UTG/EP ?

Thanks,

Silent A · #2 08-08-2007, 01:48 PM

LOL, I thought the title was "$25 000".

Pre-flop, 4 handed, you're in CO (not exactly OOP), raising is pretty standard I think. I don't think you're nearly deep enough to justify limp raising with this hand unless you think yo can walk all over your opponent post flop.

On flop, nut Flush draw + double gut-shot means you're never totally wrong to do this, especially if there's any chance that he will fold.

However, you don't have to raise either. Most of your draws are to the nuts so you don't mind button tagging along all that much, plus you'll have position on BB. By raising pot, you're giving this advantage away.

JoeAbrams · #3 08-08-2007, 01:57 PM

Hi SilentA,

Thanks for the comments.

I was thinking I should push almost always because when one of my nut outs hits, I lose pretty much all my actions. Does that line of thinking make much sense?

Silent A · #4 08-08-2007, 02:58 PM

They both make sense because they each have their advantages, but they're mutually exclusive.

The problem with a push is that your line is -EV against a set (assuming you have next to no fold equity) or even something like 9TJQ suited in hearts. You only have about 35-40% equity against these hands but you need 47% to break even.

Of course, he doesn't have to have such a hand, but it's safe to say that if he pushes back you probably would have been better off just calling. The problem is the pot you win when he folds is only about $5, but the equity deficit you'll have if he pushes back will be in a $50 pot. If you're 40% in these cases, this means your EV is about -$5, so you need him to fold or just call at least half the time. Basically, the pot is a bit too small relative to your stack size for this line to be universally +EV.

If he just calls and you hit your turn then this raise can work wonderfully. If you miss, you just have to play poker. But with only $15 left, you won't have a lot of room to work with.

The main advantage of just calling is that it is virtually guaranteed to be +EV (the main problem being the possibility of reverse-implied odds if an off-suit 7 hits). It's also a low variance play, if you go for that kind of thing. As I said, it has the advantage that the button might tag along, which is probably good for your EV even though it effectively kills three of your outs (the off suit sevens - not that they were 100% to begin with though). You are correct however, that your hand can be pretty obvious here.

Which suggests a third option, the ever unpopular mini-raise to $5.1. This gives BB the chance to raise to about $18 thus clearly defining his hand. Now you can call and save some money if the board pairs. And if he just calls, you've repped a set and he's repped a draw which can be very profitable for you (assuming he really has a draw). This line works even better if you were much deeper.

Ribbo · #5 08-08-2007, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi SilentA,

Thanks for the comments.

I was thinking I should push almost always because when one of my nut outs hits, I lose pretty much all my actions. Does that line of thinking make much sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, because you also lose the ability to fold when one of your opponent has you drawing dead.
You have position, why negate all that by shoving preflop with a hand that works better three handed than heads up?
You should absolutely raise this when heads up on a flop, but when multiway on a flop you actually want to keep it multiway. Your hand benefits by having more callers.
If you have position, a set will rarely fold if you hit the turn, whilst you can fold if the board pairs.

Silent A · #6 08-08-2007, 03:09 PM

I should also add that pushing the flop with these hands makes it easier to get paid off with top set later on, while playing passively makes it more difficult. If you have reason to believe your opponents are paying attention, you should be more inclined to push.

Also, raising the flop would be more effective if he was the pre-flop raiser and not you (his flop lead would mean less and your raise would mean more --> far more fold equity).

Silent A · #7 08-08-2007, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi SilentA,

Thanks for the comments.

I was thinking I should push almost always because when one of my nut outs hits, I lose pretty much all my actions. Does that line of thinking make much sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, because you also lose the ability to fold when one of your opponent has you drawing dead.
You have position, why negate all that by shoving preflop with a hand that works better three handed than heads up?
You should absolutely raise this when heads up on a flop, but when multiway on a flop you actually want to keep it multiway. Your hand benefits by having more callers.
If you have position, a set will rarely fold if you hit the turn, whilst you can fold if the board pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

As ribbo's post suggests, my more extensive analysis above assumes only two players are in the pot. Which obviously isn't the case here.

iggymcfly · #8 08-08-2007, 10:06 PM

This isn't a bad spot to just call. You would like button to stay in and BB's not going to be folding that much after leading OOP. If you had a pair with your draw, it would be an auto-raise though.

Silent A · #9 08-08-2007, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you had a pair with your draw, it would be an auto-raise though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to mention this point. It make a huge difference in terms of your equity vs. his calling range. It gives you extra ways to hit two-pair/trips against his draws and blocks his boats when he has a set.

This is one of those concepts that a lot of people don't think about.