Hand from home game

Baby Mantis · #1 07-31-2007, 01:37 AM

Okay, pretty straight forward, home game STT 10$ buy-in and no rebuys, just a small starter game. Most of the players are LAG and I mean very LAG with some calling raises all the way to the river with A high and 2 kicker! Villian plays any suited 2 especially connectors. Villian is LAG and sees a lot of flops, but will fold to raises occasionally.

Still 6 players left and I am UTG with AQ with the blinds at 200 and 400, the starting chip count was 10k btw and it is still early with most everyone still hovering around the 8 - 11k mark. I raise it up to 1200 and he reraises to 2200, and I call. The flop brings 4,3,2 rainbow, he bets out 1000....

Now what is the correct move here?

Or should I have reraised pf I was going over that in my head as well, what do you guys think?

#2 07-31-2007, 02:48 AM

deucethree · #3 07-31-2007, 04:56 AM

sounds more like they're loose passive/calling stations rather than laggy.

Based on the info given I think you can call, you're getting roughly 5 1/2 to 1 to call (not sure which blind called you as it doesn't say in your post). I'd have to think you still like Aces, Queens, and Fives. Fives proboably chop against a decent portion of his range and Aces and Queens lose to a small part of it, but the flop bet is just too small. Do you have any read on this guy? What range is he re-popping with? What hands would he lead out at that flop with? Are the small bets just $10 donkament play or with this guy do you think maybe they mean something (a big slow played hand?)? Also, what part of his range will he fire a second barrel with if the turn is a blank? Will he pay you off if a 5 hits and he's got a hand like JJ? Will he make a larger bet on the turn or does he always tend to bet very small? I'd really like to know what you think he does with those few hands you are beating like AJ if the turn bricks. You should have a better idea of how to answer those than me.

Pre, I think the call is fine especially in position. You're not deep-stacked but you still have enough chips to play a little poker and AQ off is not the nuts. I don't think you can fold the flop just because the bet is too small. It's worth seeing a turn. If you re-pop to say 3K will that get you any information? If so it may be an option but I'd want to be confident that if he continued with the hand I was beat. JMO's.

I think this level of poker can be somewhat difficult to play against these type of opponents. You're not short enough to say, "AQ is crushing this idiot's range, let's just put them in" and you're not really deep enough to really play poker after the flop. Sometimes you just have to make a read and go with it and sometimes I think it's not wrong to play a little weak if there's a great chance they're going to let you get it in very good any time you want.

deucethree · #4 07-31-2007, 05:38 AM

If he's a total donk you can consider re-raising pre, but I'd only do that if I flat out knew a 4-bet had me crushed or if I flat out knew a bet could be anything and I'd be happy to get it in.

If you take the re-raise for info line on the flop I think you really want to know his range for continuing with the hand. If it includes hands like 99 and AJ you're prolly priced in. That's why I don't like re-raising unless it actually puts him to a decision. Also, if he's the type that could just flat-call a re-raise and then donk bet the turn w/ a bluff that puts you in a bad spot. If he calls and donk bets a brick I think you have to assume he's got a made hand and fold. If he calls and checks and it's a blank what do you do? If you take the free card will he bluff at a blank on the river? That also puts you in a bad spot as I think a decent part of his pre-flop range might include hands like AJ, A8 sooted. I hate committing a lot of chips to a pot and getting in a spot where I have to fold a winner (and you proboably do if you end the hand w/ AQ high...I'd have to think his range for popping you pre includes enough hands that ace high doesn't beat). At a $10 donkament I really think he has pocket 10's and is betting his over-pair, AJ and with that hand he'll bet small twice and then push the river if he doesn't get there, or he might have the good old 56 sooted in which case you're baked or something big like pocket Kings or AK in which case you may have to lose your stack if a queen hits, lose your stack to AK when the Ace hits, and don't necessarily stack him with the Ace, Queen or Five unless he's a total donk.

IMO this is surprisingly difficult type hand to play well. With a decent structure (it looks like you guys have a decent structure) maybe you should consider limping more hands and keeping the pots small. Extract value on every street when you hit a flop hard. Easily release when you don't. Again, JMO's. Sorry for rambling but maybe this helps a little or maybe somebody can come on and correct.

H0neyM0nster · #5 07-31-2007, 05:52 AM

He had Ace-rag didn't he?

Baby Mantis · #6 07-31-2007, 09:11 AM

I never got to find out what he had when I did call his 1k on the flop the turn brought a 10 of spades which put 2 spades on the board. He then paused for a min. and then bet another 1k. I thought at that point about pushing, cause I just had a feeling, but folded instead because I didn't want to keep donk calling to the river, but at the time didn't want to throw all my chips in the middle. Looking back I really think that this was a key hand that I lost about 40% of my stack stupidly and led to me finishing right on the bubble. When I posted I thought my pf or flop play was a mistake so I intentionally left out the turn, but the whole hand was a major f up.

Oh well live to play another day.

btw I was utg, he was cutoff, and both blinds folded to answer deucethree.

Baby Mantis · #7 07-31-2007, 09:14 AM

sounds more like they're loose passive/calling stations rather than laggy.

deucethree · #8 07-31-2007, 09:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I never got to find out what he had when I did call his 1k on the flop the turn brought a 10 of spades which put 2 spades on the board. He then paused for a min. and then bet another 1k. I thought at that point about pushing, cause I just had a feeling, but folded instead because I didn't want to keep donk calling to the river, but at the time didn't want to throw all my chips in the middle. Looking back I really think that this was a key hand that I lost about 40% of my stack stupidly and led to me finishing right on the bubble. When I posted I thought my pf or flop play was a mistake so I intentionally left out the turn, but the whole hand was a major f up.

Oh well live to play another day.

btw I was utg, he was cutoff, and both blinds folded to answer deucethree.

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you shouldn't have checked the flop. i know people hate donk bets but this was a spot for one.

you prolly should have called the turn. what was the pot like 8K? i don't think you can fold to 1K on a turn brick.

AQ off is a tough hand to play out of position. You decided to just call pre and got a favorable flop. I think you pot it there and put him to the decision. Even if he comes over the top a lot of the hands that are beating you are 60/40 and he might even lay down the best hand. you could have 3-bet pre. out of position i think i like a 3-bet w/ a tough hand to play post-flop more than a smoothe call. if he pushes all in you get to make a decision. the way you played it you basically lose against that type of player unless you flop absolutely perfect.

Baby Mantis · #9 07-31-2007, 10:06 AM

I totally agree with you duecethree, I do think that it could of went either way pf, call or reraise. The flop is where I should of pushed and put him to a decision. I really just played that whole hand wrong and I knew it from the time I mucked it and it bothered me. I know it was just 10$ donkament, but I try to play my best anywhere. I really messed this one up though, it brought back memories of just starting out and how I played 5 years ago. I do find it extremely hard to play against players like him though, and have struggled with him in the past. I know I just need to play "good poker" against him and I will prevail. I also know how I played that last time with him was not good poker, but at least I am aware that I was playing badly. Now I just need to improve it lol, thanks again!

deucethree · #10 07-31-2007, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with you duecethree, I do think that it could of went either way pf, call or reraise. The flop is where I should of pushed and put him to a decision. I really just played that whole hand wrong and I knew it from the time I mucked it and it bothered me. I know it was just 10$ donkament, but I try to play my best anywhere. I really messed this one up though, it brought back memories of just starting out and how I played 5 years ago. I do find it extremely hard to play against players like him though, and have struggled with him in the past. I know I just need to play "good poker" against him and I will prevail. I also know how I played that last time with him was not good poker, but at least I am aware that I was playing badly. Now I just need to improve it lol, thanks again!

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np.

i think it was an easy hand to butcher. it's a lot easier to think it out 5 posts later on a message board than to make the decisions in real time.

in general in those type of games i like to flat call in position and either limp/call or raise/re-raise oop. playing out of position is very hard to do against guys that can't be put on a hand.