Bible Club - Matthew

[Magic_Man]

On another note, this story made the whole Judas thing confusing to me. What did Judas actually do to betray JC/why did they need him? Even Jesus himself says that they saw him preaching and healing every day in the town, so they must have known what he looked like. The story (and my memories of Jesus Christ Superstar) make it seem like the soldiers coming to capture him needed Judas to tell them which person was Jesus. Shouldn't this have been obvious? What was Judas' actual role? Maybe I'm just dense.

~M^2

[benjdm]

No, that's a very valid question and a bit of a conundrum. An intriguing new idea might explain it indirectly - the idea is about the gospel of Mark and the technique of Mimesis. Since Matthew used Mark as a source, it most likely was just copied out of Mark.

[ QUOTE ]
Review of The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark
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(by Dennis R. MacDonald; Yale University, 2000)
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"MacDonald begins by describing what scholars of antiquity take for granted: anyone who learned to write Greek in the ancient world learned from Homer. Homer was the textbook. Students were taught to imitate Homer, even when writing on other subjects, or to rewrite passages of Homer in prose, using different vocabulary. Thus, we can know for certain that the author of Mark's Gospel was thoroughly familiar with the works of Homer and well-trained in recasting Homeric verse into new prose tales...
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"Once the evangelist linked the sufferings of Jesus to those of Odysseus, he found in the epic a reservoir of landscapes, characterizations, type-scenes, and plot devices useful for crafting his narrative" (p. 19). Of course, all throughout MacDonald points out coinciding parallels with the Old Testament and other Jewish literature, but even these parallels have been molded according to a Homeric model in every case he examines. Consider two of the many mysteries MacDonald's theory explains, and these are even among the weakest parallels that he identifies in the book:
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* Why do the chief priests need Judas to identify Jesus in order to arrest him? This makes absolutely no sense, since many of their number had debated him in person, and his face, after a triumphal entry and a violent tirade in the temple square, could hardly have been more public. But MacDonald's theory that Judas is a type of Melanthius solves this puzzle: Melanthius is the servant who betrays Odysseus and even fetches arms for the suitors to fight Odysseus—just as Judas brings armed guards to arrest Jesus—and since none of the suitors knew Odysseus, it required Melanthius to finally identify him. MacDonald also develops several points of comparison between the suitors and the Jewish authorities. Thus, this theme of "recognition" stayed in the story even at the cost of self-contradiction. Of note is the fact that Homer names Melanthius with a literary point in mind: for his name means "The Black One," whereas Mark seems to be maligning the Jews by associating Melanthius with Judas, whose name is simply "Judah," i.e. the kingdom of the Jews, after which the Jews as a people, and the region of Judaea, were named.
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* Why does Pilate agree to free a prisoner as if it were a tradition to do so? Such a practice could hardly have been approved by Rome, since any popular rebel leader who happened to be in custody during the festival would always escape justice. And given Pilate's reputation for callous ruthlessness and disregard for Jewish interests, it is most implausible to have him participating in such a self-defeating tradition—a tradition for which there is no other evidence of any kind, not even a precedent or similar practice elsewhere. But if Barabbas is understood as the type of Irus, Odysseus' panhandling competitor in the hall of the suitors, the story makes sense as a clever fiction. Both Irus and Barabbas were scoundrels, both were competing with the story's hero for the attention of the enemy (the suitors in one case, the Jews in the other), and both are symbolic of the enemy's culpability.

[/ QUOTE ]

From here.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, it's absolutely 100% consistent with the telephone thing, and with a typical (though successful) cult.

That doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is per se, but that it's exactly what we'd predict from such a situation casts more than a little doubt on it.

Also, there are no records of his miracles at all, other than hearsay from Christians who lived decades after they supposedly happened. Jesus was supposed to have healed dozens upon dozens, to have fed thousands upon thousands, and apparently even to have been rather popular among the people. And yet, we have more direct evidence of other cults during that time than we do of Jesus and his miracles. If the miracles really happened it seems almost unimaginable that eyewitnesses wouldn't have recorded them. Also Jesus was supposed to have been a major thorin in the side of the Pharisees, not just "some other cult dude." So if the Pharisees were in fact so broken about about him, wouldn't there be records relating to that as well? Etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the answer is obvious. I know it, you know it. But try not to lose the forest for the trees. I know you're just starting it, however, I feel it's the greatest story ever told. Behind all the goofball stuff, is a story of a small group of people who wanted to change the world - and they did.

Argue about the motives and methods, but you can't help but acknowledge the results. Christianity has become the most powerful force on earth. Despite the incomprehensible statements and level of apparent gullibility needed to accept the message - people have. Millions upon millions of people have fought, sacrificed, and died to perpetuate that message, and if you look closely at what you're reading you might glimpse the reason. That small group of people may have understood human nature and the human psyche better than you think.

That small group of people ended up toppling dynasties and kings, and yes the power ended up being usurped and misdirected, but try not to lose sight of what you are reading - a doctrine of revolution.

[vhawk01]

Bump, because I was busy over the weekend and I want to know if we are moving on to a new book this week or not?

[madnak]

Yup, Genesis tonight. Did you not read it? Maybe it'd be better to hold off until next week given the holidays?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup, Genesis tonight. Did you not read it? Maybe it'd be better to hold off until next week given the holidays?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read it a few times, its the one I am most familiar with, and I will give it another once-over today. Don't change anything on my account.