10/20 full or SH?

winky51 · #1 07-04-2006, 11:24 AM

My usual game is 5/10 SH. I usually do very well there and have been playing it for a while. This weekend I decided to take a shot at 10/20 SH.

I was creamed. I checked out the tables, all of them, and found only 2 fish. The rest were intelligent TAGs, good LAGs, or tricky loose players. Players were calling with hands and making plays that simply made no sense and of course getting away with them on me.

EXAMPLE: This was not uncommon. How can I call the turn raise?? I'd say of 1000 hands played I put down 5 similar to something like this when ahead.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, BB calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero folds, SB calls.

River: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

SB has Tc Td (one pair, tens).
BB has Qh 9h (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins 17 BB.

I would see players call the flop with nothing just to try and bluff raise me out of a pot with a caught GUT draw on the turn.

EXAMPLE: This was typical. I'm thinking there are no draws, maybe he has a better T, a bottom boat, or bluffing. Instead?!?!
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results: Hero has Tc 9c (three of a kind, tens).
MP has 9d 7d (straight, ten high).
Outcome: MP wins 11 BB.

The only guess is that the players felt I was weak and would just consistantly pull this type of play on me with some low % hand. I'm guessing I was folding way to much to this kind of crap when I had nothing. But how can I call with AQ (Ace high) when I get raised on the turn on a board totally missing me with the wrong colors, in otherwords, I have at best 4 outs.

I guess I am just missing the logic at this level. There were no juicy tables. The difference between the 2 limits 5/10 and 10/20 was like night and day. 5/10 SH I can find plenty of good tables, 10/20 SH none. 5/10 few loose tricky players, TAGs are mostly ABC, LAGs are mostly morons. 10/20 its totally different.

I am dropping back down to 5/10 SH. But I want to take another shot at moving up. Playing higher limit have got to be worth it right?

Is it worth going to 10/20? I just don't see any fish there. I can play 3 tables of 5/10 SH but 10/20 I have to concentrate on 2. Any articles I can look up for play there? Suggestions?

p.s. Not complaining about the bad beats just trying to understand how to beat this limit.

brettbrettr · #2 07-05-2006, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J.
1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, BB calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 5, 4, 8 (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) A (3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero folds, SB calls.

River: (15 BB) K (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

SB has Tc Td (one pair, tens).
BB has Qh 9h (high card, ace).
Outcome: SB wins 17 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what you could have done differently and though I'm not paranoid at all I don't see how these two aren't chopping your money after the session.

Nyquiz · #3 07-05-2006, 01:49 AM

Yeah the first example is just bad by the BB, i don't mind the SB's donk bet on the turn putting you on JJ or QQ or possibly even KK. BB just decided it was time to be stupid and isolate with his drawing hand into a preflop 3-better and capper. You just got unlucky, but there is no way you should call that turn card, ever.

The second example is an attempted semi-bluff I guess. He might have put you on a smallish PP or a 3 (kinda like you wanted as betting out a strong hand like you had adds some deception). He got cute on the turn with his gutterball thinking he possibly had 10 outs or more likely that you would fold. You played it fine, I don't like a reraise in that situation because often time MPs will like to open limp or limp with hands like j10, q10, k10, and even a10. I think the C/C on the river is appropriate too. You just got unlucky.

EDIT: I think a bad night of cold cards can get people too disgruntled. I'd say make sure you're well within your bankroll when you make a move if you're risking too much you'll end up playing very badly when you get behind, you think to yourself "i can't win a pot tonight" when most of it is actually your decision making is inhibited by your tilt and your emotions are out on the table making your betting easier to read.

Neither the BB or the Villian from hand 1 or 2 played their hands profitably, which gave you the advantage, you just need to be paitient because eventually you'll have AA in hand 1, and T8s in hand 2. Good Luck.

surfdoc · #4 07-05-2006, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. Not complaining about the bad beats just trying to understand how to beat this limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

run better.

*TT* · #5 07-05-2006, 08:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only guess is that the players felt I was weak and would just consistantly pull this type of play on me with some low % hand. I'm guessing I was folding way to much to this kind of crap when I had nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the level where you will begin to see people play at you based on the board, not their cards. Spend a day watching the game rather than playing it, you might walk away from that session with a new understanding how a LAG thinks.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

disjunction · #6 07-05-2006, 08:45 AM

FWIW, the Party 10/20 has been a little tougher than usual over the last couple of weeks. Still easily beatable if you play right, but game quality goes up and down like a sine wave, and you happened to start at a tougher point.