2/4 B&M - TPGK on turn, bet coming from right; raise, call or fold?

gobbledygeek · #1 11-09-2007, 04:22 PM

2/4 B&M, loose & passive, 10 players

Preflop: Hero is Button with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 limpers, Hero limps, SB completes, BB checks

Flop (7 players, 7 SB): K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Blinds check, MP1 bets, 2 calls, Hero raises, blinds fold, others call

Turn (4 players, 7.5 BB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO turns to me and says "just in case you were thinking of checking..." and bets, Hero...

Preflop I'd usually raise KQ here assuming I have a slight equity edge and for a free card on the flop. With KJ and already having the button I'm just limping. Ok?

On flop with top pair good kicker I'm usually raising for value. Is there any merit waiting until a safe card comes on the turn as this is a fairly drawy board? But I hate waiting for the turn to raise in a passive live game where so often original bettors will check...

CO is fairly tight old guy and not too aggressive. He's played with me enough to know I like the raise flop / take the free turn card play, so it's possible he's just betting a King here, but he's usually too passive for that. My initial thought was raise and take a free showdown if offered one; but what to do if CO 3bets, do I now have to fold?

ETA: Extra info on CO, highly unlikely that he's gonna 3bet me with 2 pair. If he 3bets he either has a straight (kinda unlikely he's playing T7 or 75, although he might limp these if they are suited in late position with limpers) or a set.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

GgettingnoworkdonetodayG

mikeca · #2 11-09-2007, 04:31 PM

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Preflop I'd usually raise KQ here assuming I have a slight equity edge and for a free card on the flop. With KJ and already having the button I'm just limping. Ok?

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Ok with me. That's what I would do.

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On flop with top pair good kicker I'm usually raising for value. Is there any merit waiting until a safe card comes on the turn as this is a fairly drawy board? But I hate waiting for the turn to raise in a passive live game where so often original bettors will check...

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Raise the flop. Don't wait for the turn.

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CO is fairly tight old guy and not too aggressive. He's played with me enough to know I like the raise flop / take the free turn card play, so it's possible he's just betting a King here, but he's usually too passive for that. My initial thought was raise and take a free showdown if offered one; but what to do if CO 3bets, do I now have to fold?

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I am very suspicious of someone saying something like "just in case you were thinking of checking..." That looks like a tell to me that he wants you to raise so he can 3 bet. I'd just call.

kbdunn · #3 11-09-2007, 04:32 PM

Preflop - raising/limping is close

Flop - yes raise, dont wait on that board

Turn - raise ok to push MP1/MP2 out. Since CO is passive, he will have a hard time 3 betting you without something that has you completly beat, set, 10/7, 5/7 etc. So you can fold to a 3 bet pretty easily here. If villain was more aggro and would 3 bet with two pair, raising here is not good.

KitCloudkicker · #4 11-09-2007, 05:16 PM

raise, drive everyone else out if possible. if he 3 bets dump it.

check behind the river.

this is an important concept. if there are people behind you, you are putting in two bets anyway, your hand is vulnerable, the pot is substantial, and you can easily fold to a 3 bet - pls raise the turn.

gobbledygeek · #5 11-09-2007, 05:26 PM

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raise, drive everyone else out if possible. if he 3 bets dump it.

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That's what I ended up doing; just wanted to confirm this was correct since I'm not used to the raise/dump line.

One Outer · #6 11-09-2007, 08:09 PM

I'm grunching. I limp this too. Flop play is, of course, goot. The raise is for value and if you fold out one big club or a gutshot in the blinds, great.

I have no godly idea what to do on the turn. In this situation I think calling is a good idea. A raise doesn't protect you from the flush draw and I'm confused as hell about villain's hand. He probably thinks you were doing the free card play (all old people automatically put us on fancy stuff; it's like a rule or something).

re-evaluate on river

EDIT: I'm never going to get any better at this; maybe I should give up. I don't get it. There are open enders and a flush draw possible with 2 people other than villain already in the hand. The first caller is getting an immediate, what, like 5.25-1 on the call, and if he called the other one is getting better than 6. How does raising protect us from straight and flush draws? Can't we wait until the river and raise a blank/bet for value then?

gobbledygeek · #7 11-13-2007, 12:30 PM

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EDIT: I'm never going to get any better at this; maybe I should give up. I don't get it. There are open enders and a flush draw possible with 2 people other than villain already in the hand. The first caller is getting an immediate, what, like 5.25-1 on the call, and if he called the other one is getting better than 6. How does raising protect us from straight and flush draws? Can't we wait until the river and raise a blank/bet for value then?

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Flush draws and open-ended straight draws will almost always have the pot odds to continue regardless (almost) of how many bets are put in. The thing is, on the turn a flush draw (for example) is only going to come in on the river about 1 in 5 times. So 4 times your hand is going to hold up (if it is in fact ahead) to every 1 time it loses out to the flush draw; so charge the flush draw as much as possible. If you are ahead and only bet 1 BB, your net profit from the flush draw on the turn is (approximately) 4 BB (win) - 1 BB (lose) = 3BB; if you bet 2 BB it's 8 BB (win) - 2 BB (lose) = 6 BB.

Besides, a raise will force 1 pair hands (who have 5 outs to beat you, thus needing around 8.5:1), etc. to call unprofitably.

GsomeonecorrectmeifI'mwrongG

jesse8888 · #8 11-13-2007, 02:00 PM

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I'm grunching. I limp this too. Flop play is, of course, goot. The raise is for value and if you fold out one big club or a gutshot in the blinds, great.

I have no godly idea what to do on the turn. In this situation I think calling is a good idea. A raise doesn't protect you from the flush draw and I'm confused as hell about villain's hand. He probably thinks you were doing the free card play (all old people automatically put us on fancy stuff; it's like a rule or something).

re-evaluate on river

EDIT: I'm never going to get any better at this; maybe I should give up. I don't get it. There are open enders and a flush draw possible with 2 people other than villain already in the hand. The first caller is getting an immediate, what, like 5.25-1 on the call, and if he called the other one is getting better than 6. How does raising protect us from straight and flush draws? Can't we wait until the river and raise a blank/bet for value then?

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Just because you can't drive out a draw doesn't mean you shouldn't charge it the maximum. Look at it this way; if you just call, you're going to have to put in a bet on the river. If you raise, you can most likely take a free showdown against the CO, also putting in two bets.

In the first case, you've allowed the other players in the hand to pay only 1 big bet while you had to pay 2. In the second, you've managed to get the (presumably still behind) other players to put in 2 big bets. They may have had odds to pay 2 bets (although it's hard to believe they BOTH did), but that doesn't mean you didn't make some money by making them do it.